User talk:Tub

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You're being too broad in your strategy clean up. --JonTheMon 16:55, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

You can keep on cleaning those strats up, just try to be a bit more.... encompassing with what you leave behind. --JonTheMon 17:09, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

I had added my reasoning before editing in the Augury Rock Talk page, and just now added a reasoning why I did as I did. If you disagree with any of those, please let me know.

Faction points[edit]

You mention 50 pts per kill, when it is lower; 10 NM 20 HM per kill.MystiLefemEle 13:26, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

That's the points of the Blessing, you gain an additional 50 points per foe after vanquishing as mentioned in Vanquisher#Notes. Tub 13:55, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
"In Guild Wars Factions, vanquishing an area in the Echovald Forest or the Jade Sea will respectively earn Kurzick faction or Luxon faction equal to 50 times the number of monsters killed." not 50 pts per kill, which would be and is misleading.MystiLefemEle 13:46, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
I don't quite understand what's wrong with my wording. Are you saying that the current wording suggest that the points are awarded when a monster is killed instead of at the end (as they are?)
I've choosen the wording as it is because it's short and fits into the table headers even on lower screen resolution. If you know a different wording that's more accurate, yet concise enough to fit into the table headers, please let me know. We could also solve this by talking a bit about Bonus Points in the introduction. Tub 13:55, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
For anyone, at first glance, they see 50 points per kill, when it is not and the current 50 per kill is redundant, since it is and already has been noted in the respective notes section. The previous version, simply stated that Echovald Forest was for Kurzick and Jade Sea for the Luxon Faction. Perhaps, simply stating the approprate faction, with out # per kills for the area awarded. As for the clarification to bonus points in the itroduction, perhaps, or a direction to the page(s), which is already done. with a clarification on the respective blessing page(s) needed as well.MystiLefemEle 14:11, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
Again, thank you for your feedback. I've restructured the introduction paragraph and added the faction rewards. I'll wait if someone objects/reverts, but will add another edit to shorten the table notes to "Bonus Points are Luxon Faction" later. If you have further criticism or suggestions, please continue the discussion on the article's talk page so we can get some more opinions. Tub 16:42, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
Looks good now, thank you.MystiLefemEle 09:53, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Double the fun?[edit]

This was a more sensible edit than mine. Thanks.  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 23:35, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for editing in the first place, if only to remind me that the article needs work. ;) I feel a bit guilty about removing most of your changes; I'm glad you agree with the edit. I've done some more editing, if you disagree with anything or see room for further improvements, edit ahead! Tub 00:42, 28 August 2010 (UTC)


for the link. I just copy&pasted from another quest that had the dialogue before the walkthrough w/o even considering format. D= Sardaukar User Sardaukar sig.png 17:54, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

no problem. Sorry for reverting your whole edit, I didn't look closely enough to spot the added dialogue. Tub 18:00, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Passage scrolls and EB[edit]

They cannot be used even when traveling alone? Or only when some people in the party haven't yet unlocked the destination outpost? Or...? Regardless, thanks for doing the testing and updating the articles.  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 00:13, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Like UW/FoW-scrolls, they don't work there at all. I was a party of one when I tried to use the scroll. Hence I did not check whether they actually transport your whole party now.
And thanks for all your work on the wiki. It seems like one only needs to make a little fix, and five minutes later you've patrolled Recent Changes and rewritten half of the article. ;) Tub 01:48, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
That's a compelling test; it's too bad (it would be nice to avoid having to travel EB/GToB → KC → Cavalon/HzH → Deep/Urgoz).
And thanks for the compliment.  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 01:52, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Infobox changes also affected...[edit]

The changes to the quest infobox also affected the Template:Quest list table. I tried manually updating the cat lists in the various Category:Lists of quests, but I suspect it's probably better long term if we can fix the QLT template so that it recognizes subcategories. (Or not, depending on what is required in the relevant article.) Any thoughts on how to make that happen? If not, we can manually add the subcats. — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 19:53, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Suppose that happens when you blindly follow konig's advice and meddle with categories. I've reverted that specific change, any pre-beyond quests should be back to their old categories now. Tub 20:08, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
Cool. Thanks for the quick fix. — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 20:59, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Quick request[edit]

Since I don't know the wiki magic of infobox templates (and every attempt I've made to duplicate with minor alterations turns into a "screwing up the entire template" scenario), I was hoping you can perform this little rather-required feature to the NPC infobox. Preferably as part of any changes to consistencize it with the quest infobox. Konig/talk 03:15, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Apparently Balistic has done the change already. Tub 08:49, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
Yeah, guy's fast when it comes to stuff brought up on others' talk pages. Also, thanks for fixing that. I apparently read it "of" rather than "in" Konig/talk 09:48, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Mark II[edit]

I was wondering if you can add {{#if tags or something to the various NPC, location, item, etc. infoboxes for the campaigns - if placing as Prophecies, Factions, Nightfall, Eye of the North, Bonus Mission Pack, or Beyond, where the campaign is displayed on the page becomes [[Guild Wars Prophecies|Prophecies]], [[Guild Wars Factions|Factions]], [[Guild Wars Nightfall|Nightfall]], [[Guild Wars Eye of the North|Eye of the North]], [[Guild Wars Bonus Mission Pack|Bonus Mission Pack]], and [[Guild Wars Beyond|Beyond]] respectively. I may have worded it confusingly... I would do this change but those infobox templates confuse the living heck out of me, and the only thing I'd know how to do would cause us to create a [[Guild Wars Core|Core]] link which would contradict the whole purpose (bypassing redirects!). It's not a mandatory kind of thing to do, but imo it would make a few things cleaner. Konig/talk 23:03, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure it's in our best interest to complicate templates for the sole reason of avoiding a redirect. The redirects will stay forever (if only for the searchbox), so we might as well use them. It's not perfect, but neither is adding specific logic to each and every template. Tub 23:55, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
IMO, redirects should only exist for search boxes (not everyone will know exactly what to search, without spelling error or whatever; especially in the case of merged pages), and not in articles themselves (with exception of being spoiler-tastic - e.g., linking to "Spoiler-related boss" instead of Undead Prince Rurik). Konig/talk 00:05, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Mark III? Well, not really a request but a question (and didn't want to make a new topic - less space taken this way) Template talk:Mission infobox#Image and maps. Did you ever make a mock-up of that? I would but those infoboxes confuse me in how they're set-up... terribly confuse me. Konig/talk 21:25, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

My answer on that page specifically said that I wouldn't be the one to create a mockup. I've got my own pet projects and timesinks and must prioritize accordingly (whereas priority is directly proportional to my interest in the matter). If you want to create a mockup, copy the template to a sandbox, add some example invocations below (like I did here), then go fiddle with it until it works. The only thing you need to copy from the quest infobox is the stuff around {{Infobox images first row}}/{{Infobox images next row]] and the corresponding parts of the documentation. You'll figure it out. Tub 22:09, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
Didn't see that "I won't be the one" though now I see how it's implied (definably not specific :P). I'll attempt to figure out the infobox set up, even though previous attempts failed miserably. Konig/talk 22:27, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Norn Fighting rewards in HM?[edit]

Did you happen to check whether one could get rep pts in HM with R8 <= rank <= R10. (If not, I think I have a toon who could test it out.) (Mind you, I dunno why someone would want to gain points this way.) — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 15:52, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Sure did. You can't enter the tournament in HM, you get switched to NM on entry. I'll leave a note on the article. Tub 16:08, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
You know, I think I knew that... in between two HM mish, I stopped to pick up Zho's Journal... and couldn't figure out how I had ended up in NM in between. Thanks for clarifying (here and there). — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 16:28, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

I love your template[edit]

This is exactly what I needed for the weapon infobox, thanks! -- User Kirbman sig.png Kirbman 03:26, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Splitting that functionality into a separately usable template may have been done on purpose. Glad it found some use in other infoboxes (besides quests & NPCs) Tub 09:56, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
Actually I tried implementing it on the weapon infobox and realized that they aren't ready for each other yet. Right now, all of the weapon infobox campaigns are enclosed in [[double brackets]], which the infobox campaign row template isn't expecting, so they get displayed. It also isn't ready to handle multiple campaigns listed together. I can add that functionality after I finish with the mess I'm currently working on, or you could add it if you want. I don't think the template should be changed to accept brackets, we can just get a bot to clean those up once the template is ready to handle multiple campaigns. -- User Kirbman sig.png Kirbman 16:55, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
The most important thing about multiple campaigns is to split them into separate parameters, i.e. campaign=Prophecies|campaign2=Factions etc. Otherwise auto-categorization is going to be soo much more difficult. Do you have a rough estimate about the number of multi-campaign weapons? Is it feasible to adjust them?
Do you have access to any bot that could strip the brackets from the parameters? Otherwise we'd have to wait for this to come through.
As for said template supporting multiple campaigns, the easy way is to use the template three times, generating three rows. For a proper display, it has to be decided how to mix campaigns, events, storylines etc together. See here for an example how we didn't manage to decide that. Tub 17:55, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
I do not have access to any sort of bot, we would have to talk to the admins. There are a LOT of weapons with multiple campaigns, but its definitely feasible because none of the unique weapons have multiple campaigns. The problem with doing three rows would be that each one would be individually listed as campaign, so I'd prefer to be able to handle it with one row. I don't think it would actually be that bad to have it handle each possible combination of multiple campaigns, assuming there's no overlap with the BMP, and we don't count overlap with Beyond campaigns for weapons that already exist in that campaign normally. I can try out something like that on your sandbox version later if you'd like. -- User Kirbman sig.png Kirbman 20:42, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
Can you please link a multi-campaign weapon? I currently cannot imagine any that aren't either tied to a specific campaign, or "core". Also, feel free to edit my sandbox, that's what it was made for. Tub 22:43, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
Alright, here's the first one that came to mind: Briarwood Scythe. Also, here's an example of one that is listed as Core but I'm not sure if it really should be because it doesn't appear in Prophecies: Diamond Aegis. Judging by how many are just listed as Core instead of by multiple campaigns it's probably a lot less than I initially thought. -- User Kirbman sig.png Kirbman 04:03, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
Everything that can drop in UW, FoW, Zaishen Chest or during PvP formats is, by definition, Core, because it's aquirable by anyone with at least one full campaign.
According to [this], the Briarwood Scythe can drop from the Zaishen Chest, making it Core. I expect that other weapons would follow that path, if only we had enough drop data from the zaishen chest.
Is it likely that there are weapons with weird combinations like "Halloween" + "Prophecies" or "Beyond: War in Kryta" + "Nightfall", i.e. mixing a campaign with something different? Tub 11:12, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
I just noticed, something like Woven Shield is broken. If it's Core, then adding Nightfall is somewhat redundant. If any campaign is sufficient, then of course it'll be available to accounts with Nightfall. It's simply "Core". We don't list Energy Surge as "Core, Prophecies, Factions, Nightfall, Eye of the North" either, or the Fire Staff as "Core, Prophecies, Factions, Nightfall, Eye of the North" simply because it can drop anywhere, right? Tub 11:22, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
(Reset indent) Actually, I suspect that ANY skin can drop from the Zaishen chest. -- Hong 11:27, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
There are some known exceptions (everything that goes into HoM, everything from Beyond, Icy Dragon Sword, envoy weapons, candy cane weapons, ..), so it's not that easy. Tub 14:27, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
Those are pretty obvious exceptions, though. -- Hong 14:58, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
There are quite a few skins that don't drop from the Zaishen Chest, but if you count the combination of skins from the HoH chest, the Zchest, PvP reward skins, traveler gifts, and skins that drop in FoW or UW, then you have essentially every skin categorized as Core. If you're counting whether or not its available to players with just a given campaign, then you're also including every tradable item. For example, the Zchest can drop items from any campaign, which doesn't make them core, and PvP rewards include skins from all campaigns, but that doesn't make them core. I think that only items that wouldn't otherwise be listed as campaign specific should be listed as core, because core is simply the overlap of all four campaigns. TL:DR: Individual campaign classification should have priority over Core classification. -- User Kirbman sig.png Kirbman 17:44, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
Sure, trading makes the campaign information a lot less useful for weapons than for skills or quests, except for the BMP weapons that are always customized. But I doubt that it'll get more useful if we just cram all headers from the "aquisition" section in there. In any case, it's currently completely inconsistent; if we actually care to improve the template with regards to specifying beyond chapters or events as campaign, then we should probably get our data fixed, first. Since this may involve changes to GWW:WEAPONS, the discussion should probably take place somewhere else. Tub 17:55, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
I agree, let's focus on the original topic of this discussion here, and continue discussion about when to classify weapons as "Core" here. -- User Kirbman sig.png Kirbman 20:58, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Traveller template change[edit]

Hey Tub, could you tell me exactly what happened? Did the unexpected parser functions update break something? I’ve been looking at that diff now for a while and don’t really get (and I don’t remember either) why I added 15 hours. But I’m unsure why there was never any issue in the last two years that code was there.. poke | talk 11:48, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Nevermind, saw the discussion at HELP:WIKI, so I’ll continue there. poke | talk 11:53, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Union for Sheltering Spirits (USS) thanks you[edit]

Thanks for this update to Shelter. – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 21:36, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Allow me to fix that section title. Union for Sheltering Spirits of Restoration (USSR). Konig/talk 22:00, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks once again[edit]

In this case, for removing all the spurious related skills from a bunch of, your usual help/edits/comments on various templates.– Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 18:08, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

That cleanup wasn't as tedious as it looks, it was just some fallout from a little side project of mine. Anybody stalking my edits and sandboxes might have a hint of what I'm trying to do, but I'm not going to announce it just now - I'm not sure if it'll ever bear fruit or how much time I can devote to this toy. Tub 22:54, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

DPL question[edit]

One of my sandboxes is not in Mainspace, but it uses DPL to grab pieces of mainspace articles. One of those pieces has {{outdated info}}, which somehow causes the page to show up in category:outdated info even though the page itself does not display the category label at the bottom. I'm still playing around with how to use DPL to grab builds from certain types of NPCs (rather than manually creating lists, as I did for WiK, e.g. Mantle & Peacekeepers).

Is there something I can do with the DPL so that it doesn't overcat the sandbox page? Or do we need to re-adjust {{outdated info}}? Thanks. – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 20:37, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Being a first-class precog, I did the required edit yesterday. Not sure why the category list isn't updated yet, but your page isn't listed as being in any categories.. Tub 21:19, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
Well, being the protagonist of a Philip K. Dick novel is something...but it was your edit (and note on a certain talk page) that spurred me to check the category...and the sandbox's inclusion in the cat prompted the question.
So... I suppose we'll chalk this one up to delayed caching issues (at least if it disappears on its own in the next day or so). Thanks. – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 21:23, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
That sandbox is still showing up in category:outdated info even tho it's (a) in my user space and (b) only uses DPL to render the text. Should the category be tagged with "onlyinclude" instead of "includeonly"? I always how those end up applying to corner/edge cases. – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 18:06, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
Don't ask me why it didn't propagate, but the thing I just did seems to have worked. Yes, I'm as scared as you are that this actually worked. Tub 18:35, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
That's really ...weird. (But the idea was brilliant — I'll have to try that again next time something like this happens in mainspace. I wonder if it would help propagate new versions of images — those sometimes take a while to appear.) Nice work and thank you. – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 18:41, 6 January 2012 (UTC)


I'm relying on you to make sure I didn't screw up by removing spaces from e.g. {{1/2}} etc. (It created a problem when combining ½ with any other text.) Thanks. – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 18:02, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

If you're relying on me for your edits, the prudent thing to to would be to check beforehand. I'm all for helping this wiki, but I don't appreciate random work being forced onto me because I'm perceived as being all-knowing.
There's a reason I didn't touch said template(s) beyond the obvious fix: I don't know the answer. Off the top of my head, I don't see any problems, but I'm sure the wiki has plenty of bugs or quirks wrt html entities that I don't know about.
To make sure, I'd have to sink an hour to find every template where it's used and double-check every single one of them; then I'd have to check every article where it's used to see if it needs the space readded. Always remembering to purge the cache to avoid double-checking obsolete data. Since I didn't feel like doing that, I didn't touch the templates. Tub 18:35, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
I'm sorry if I mispoke. I did my own testing beforehand, but I'm far from perfect. I spot checked and looked at expected edge-cases, but like you, I can't be sure that I found every possible use. I didn't mean for you to do my work for me. I'm meant relying on you sardonically, not literally. – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 18:40, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
What I should have said was what I meant: "I want you to be aware that I made these changes, in case something slipped by my testing." Again, I apologize for making it appear that I was asking you to engage in additional work beyond what you already do. – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 18:44, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
Meh, don't sweat it. Since I'm the residential geek with my fair share of support-related pain, hinting that I'm responsible for anything since it's "technical stuff" is a surefire way to get me to push back. Try dangling shiny stuff in front of my nose next time, that tends to work way better. :p
Though I maintain that edits to frequently used templates should be checked beforehand. Even if a bad edit gets reverted immediately, it'll fill the job queue and can raise server load for hours.
I've seen the edits (anything I edit goes to my watchlist), but as said, I cannot offer any help in this case except to report that I haven't spotted any explosions yet. Tub 20:08, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Colored Map Icon template[edit]

Since you seem to know your stuff, mind taking a look at {{Colored map icon}}? The problem is that I can't get the "link=" syntax to work. Even if I change the template to statically redirect somewhere, it doesn't, instead just linking to the file description page. Besides that I think everything's working as it should. Thanks in advance if you figure it out, I'm sure it's some stupid little error I made. ~FarloUser Farlo Triad.pngTalk 08:21, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

*waves magic wand* there you go. [1] actually documents this, if you look closely. Tub 11:11, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
Shockingly, I was looking at that page as well. That's weird because the icons on the maps now do accept that as a page, but whatever, I'm too tired to figure that out. Thanks again, now I can actually do something :P ~FarloUser Farlo Triad.pngTalk 12:29, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
Apparently, sometimes nested template calls take a while to propagate, even after refreshing the various caches. I'm sure it's not random behavior, but I haven't figured out a way to replicate the issue on demand. – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 19:18, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, I noticed that on a few other templates, but whatever, as long as it works :D ~FarloUser Farlo Triad.pngTalk 19:57, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Chrome Shadows[edit]

Could you take a look at this? I have no idea how the shadows work, but I'd like to fix this and then start rolling them out. Thanks again :P ~FarloUser Farlo Triad.pngTalk 01:10, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

The css standard doesn't specify exactly how the shadows need to be rendered. Thus, every browser displays them slightly differently. But those differences are only noticeable on a plain background, not so much once we put them on a real map. What's important is that they make the font readable. Tub 12:47, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Rather than start a new section (again)... even after copying your code into the common.css, the shadows aren't working on IE9. It's been more than a few hours so I hoped that was enough time to let it refresh everything. Any ideas why they're not showing? ~FarloUser Farlo Triad.pngTalk 08:26, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Scratch that, turns out I forgot about the extra "div class" tag to get IE to work. I'm getting a weird coloring on the Eternal Grove link that's not on a map in Chrome, but the rest seems to be working fine. I'll try it on a few more maps and see if anything breaks. ~FarloUser Farlo Triad.pngTalk 08:39, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Hey there bestest buddy[edit]

How do I transclude external links? Google is of no help today :( ~FarloUser Farlo Triad.pngTalk 00:31, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Wow... I didn't think it made a difference, lol. Thanks for the quick response :D ~FarloUser Farlo Triad.pngTalk 00:52, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Automated totals[edit]

While a nice idea, we had some errors in generated code for your totals at Imperial Guard Lockbox/Drop rate. It was 3x out for all of the totals - you had an extra space between "round 2" when it should be "round2". Update the automatically generating script please! 19px Chieftain Alex 02:00, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

What errors exactly? According to the documentation, whitespace doesn't matter, and the revisions before your edits and after your edits are identical. So what were your edits supposed to fix? Tub 02:15, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
Yeah when I looked at the history, it didn't create any difference. But all of the totals were totally (!) wrong at the time, and after changing it works... 19px Chieftain Alex 11:25, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
I really doubt that whatever you saw was related to the whitespaces in the formulas. If you encounter it again, please make a screenshot, then try purging the page (click on the clock at the top of the page) to see if that helps. Tub 12:13, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
Now I've seen it too. Purging the cache fixed it. Unfortunately I forgot to make a screenshot to assess the bug. I can only imagine a mediawiki-bug where the contents of variables aren't reset properly. Maybe we'll need to manually clear them at the top of the page? Tub 19:30, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
When I encountered it again, I noticed that the totals counted every line three times, except the newly added line, which was only counted twice. This suggests that the wiki recreated several revisions of the page without clearing variable contents in between, or something similar.
I haven't seen it pop up again after I manually cleared the variables. If you encounter it again, please let me know; otherwise I'll assume it's fixed. Tub 16:44, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Data collection[edit]

This is more of a community question, but I wanted to get your opinion first before deciding if it was worth raising elsewhere. I have two concerns about our current practice in drop data templates. Getting good data is always difficult; I would like to ensure that our tools make it easy to be accurate.

  1. We ask people to update their own totals rather than adding a new line each time (to prevent bloating the table size). This requires that contributors are careful with their math.
  2. We lump multiple drops of the same object into a single column. This requires that the player pay attention to how many times the item dropped and to remember that e.g. 30 creme brulees could mean 3x of ten sweets of 10x of three each.

Since I know my own attention to detail is insufficient to avoid errors in either of the above, I am concerned that we have introduced an unnecessary amount of unreliability. Here's what I would like to see instead:

(1) Too many rows in the table.

Instead of having people update their own line, do a manual archiving:

  • Move the existing table to an archive page.
  • Add the the results results as the first row of the new table, with the "signature" column linked to the archive.

This ensures that no one has to do any manual calculations and allows us to audit the steps.

(2) Multiple drops

There are two other ways to address this, both with their own pitfalls:
(A) Guild Wiki uses a distinct column for each count of an item (e.g. 1, 3, or 10 b-flames). This allows for both value assessments (what's the average number of flames / box) and automatically counting (how many were opened is still a simple sum). On the downside, people need to count how many times they got each variation.
(B) List the total amount dropped. This means the person only has to keep track of how many new items they have and still allows for value assessments. However, it would prevent the simple audit check for the number of gifts opened.

I think either is preferably to the current situation. (We only need a few contributors getting confused about how to represent 30 creme brulees to spoil the research). Do you (or anyone else who visits this page) share my concerns? (I realize there would be some effort involved to change the current practice, but I think it would be worth it.) – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 20:15, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

(1) well, I personally wish to keep my lines un-archived so I can keep an overview on my own possessions. I'm not sure if I'm alone with that desire; if there are more of me, selectively archiving will be complicated.
But I wouldn't mind if people just added a new line each time instead of adding their existing totals if they feel more comfortable doing so.
(2) There's only two presents with variable amounts: Strongboxes and Royal Gifts. Keeping 3/10 separate may make sense on strongboxes, but on Royal Gifts, we'd have to add columns for 1-5 lockpicks, brandy, lokum or rations - which would instantly yield 16 new columns and additional work for people to track.
We could add two safety measures though:
  • an (optional) "total" parameter for the amount of presents opened, i.e. {{/line | total=10 | lockpick=5 | crate=4}}. If it doesn't match the amount of items specified, the line will only display a red warning and will be ignored for the total count. Then again, does that really help if you're careful? And how would someone fix such an error except by reverting the data from the whole batch of presents? So, is it really worth the work?
  • We could manually add checks like "if item X is a multiple of 10 and way above the average drop rate, warn about it.". That'd allow the regulars to easily find bogus entries and correct them. Though in the past, such mistakes have been obvious enough without scripted help.
All in all, I'm sure that we can provide a huge, over-engineered solution that spots common errors, gives friendly warnings and brews you a coffee while you're opening gifts, if we'd only throw enough time at it.
The other path we could take is to provide an easier interface for entering data, like an online spreadsheet or a specialized webapp where you just click a button and it'll output a line you can copy/paste into the wiki.
I'm not sure if either is worth the effort though - mistakes tend to even out, and the law of large numbers is on our side. Tub 21:15, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for your reply.
I strongly disagree with "mistakes tend to even out;" that's not at all my experience with data collection. (Sure, there are certain types of mistakes that do, but most tend to accumulate over time instead.) Of course, the ideal situation would be a data entry tool...but I don't think that's going to happen unless someone wants to take on some sort of significant open source project.
That said, since you don't share my concerns (or at least, not to the same degree), I'm not going to fuss about it. (Instead, I will silently mutter to myself about potential error rates and the difficulty in assessing the expected trade value of these items ;-). What we do have is a lot better than what we used to...and I can be content with that. – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 21:53, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
Ah, a simple javascript based web form (or spreadsheet) shouldn't be more than an hour of work for the first one (maybe two if you want to make it fancy), then 15 minutes for each subsequent present. Always read "I'm not sure it's worth the effort" as "I don't think I'll do it unless I get seriously bored for some reason", but everyone else is free to do with their time as they wish. I can't be the only (web-) developer on this wiki, can I? Tub 22:01, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Seriously bored[edit]

(Reset indent) turns out, "seriously bored" can actually happen when you're sick, your gf goes to the party alone and your internet connection is unusably slow for the evening. What do you think about this? Tub 00:22, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
That's a mighty slick tool. I suspect that several of my friends who never bother adding their drop data might actually use that, b/c it makes it so easy. (It doesn't address my interest in separating the frequency of getting 2 krytan lokkum vs 3, but I'm guessing hardly anyone is as interested in expected value of the contents as I am). How would you recommend we handle letting people know about this? We rarely link mainspace articles to user articles and, afaik, never to external sites (except for the obvious: fansites, youtube, and TexMod add ons; even then, we do this sparingly). – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 22:02, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
If I were you, I'd assume equal probabilities for 1-5 lokums and stop worrying. The tool could generate different information based on the amount entered, but I've explained above why the drop data table does not accept that information at the moment, at least not for royal gifts.
For maximum usefulness, the tool should be linked at the top of the drop rate articles. Since it can't be hosted in the wiki (due to using pure html and javascript), it'll have to stay somewhere else. I'm the sole owner of that domain and I promise to keep the page functional and free of ads. It's a harmless link with no hidden agenda and I think I've earned the right to be trusted.
(I've created tools for other games I've been playing, for example the one linked here. Even though I haven't played the game in 2 years, I'm still updating the tool, free of charge, without ads or donation requests. Just in case anyone asks for references :p)
But of course we'll have to initiate an official discussion first. Would you mind doing so? It does look better if someone else promotes it, and you were the one to request it. Also, I've done my daily quota and need to hit the hay, and tomorrow will be a busy day. Tub 02:14, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
I'll initiate the conversation (it will be interesting). (And, this tool or not, I think you've covered your quarterly quota.)
Re: using averages: for RGs, I've always assumed the mean is a reasonable # for lokkum/picks/etc, but that doesn't work for the strongboxes, at least not from the ones I've opened. (There's not enough data from Lockboxes to suggest whether it's reasonable/not.) Thanks again. – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 03:53, 20 February 2012 (UTC)


I don't see how trying to help others is a problem, nor do I see how my video is stupid. Obviously outpost-only tonics don't work that way, which is why I did not put it in the "To spam outpost-only tonics:" bullet. Yeah, those are there for a reason (lul). The method is faster than the Loose Magic method because you don't need to walk to Zinn's Laboratory to use it. I didn't mind you getting rid of the video, but next time at least have the courtesy to explain in a way that isn't rude, and in this case, incorrect. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by IGeneral (talk) at 14:43, 22 February 2012 (UTC).

There's no problem with trying to help others, but there is a problem when doing so with a hidden agenda of promoting one's own youtube channel for a piece of information that does not require a video to explain. So far, your "contributions" to this wiki have been mostly trying to promote your youtube-channel and violating existing policies like GWW:SIGN, which puts you in a very bad position to call out others for behaving rude. Please browse GWW:POLICY and try again.
There's also a problem if the information presented is inaccurate, misleading, redundant or any other mature-sounding synonym for "stupid". And a video title of "How to Spam any Tonic" is all of the above, no matter from which part of the article it was linked. Tub 14:41, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
The unsigned comment was obviously an accident. My intentions were not to be rude, as it was simply a mistake. But that is beside the point. I now understand why I shouldn't have posted the video, because another user explained it to me. I do encourage you to show more respect to new users who are still learning the policies, but I apologize for posting the video. iGeneral 17:07, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Data → wikicode tool[edit]

Once again, thanks for setting this up. I expect/hope that it will improve data collection (by making collection more accessible to the masses and more accurate).

  1. We need to give your tool a name, b/c it's too cool not to have one.
  2. What do you think about adding a dummy parm so that we can count how many times it's used? e.g. countedByTubTool=yes

Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 16:26, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

It's a tool, meant to be used, not to be anthropomorphised. I'm not sure giving it a name will have any positive impact on the wiki.
I'm not vain enough to force my nick into other people's wiki code. Is there a reason for such a parameter other than curiosity? Tub 17:03, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
If we have 20 entries added and none used the tool, we probably should remove the link. In contrast, if we have 20 entries and 10 have used the tool, we should extend its usage to other data collection pages. I'm a believer in using metrics to help make choices about what works/doesn't work.
  1. I don't care what we call it, but I hope to distinguish it from other (existing/potential) data collection tools. Even flat-head screwdrivers get their own name distinct from the named-after-someone Phillips-head screwdriver.
  2. "e.g." above means just that: an example, not a proposal — the param can be blah=blah and serve the same purpose.
Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 17:25, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
FYI, see those entries that have two || after the username for some reason? That's the secret, non-intrusive way to mark data added with my tool. So far, we've gained 80% of the market share since the change. World domination, here we come!
That was enough reason for me to support Gifts of the Traveler as well. I've added a two-column layout to the unnamed drop tool and added some grouping, to make it easier to find the button you need to click.
And while I was at it, I added automatical total generation to GotTs as well.
Guess I could now start opening those 55 gifts that accumulated over the past few months.. Tub 16:09, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
Eh, that works. (Even if it was unintended.) The point was to collect metrics, not to promote a name or idea. (And the point of naming a tool, as with naming anything, is to make it easier to discuss — as in when someone else says, "but we link to ...that [insert reference name] tool, why don't we link to [insert name of other tool]?")
Regardless, it's good stuff and I'm glad our contributors are making use of it. – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 00:33, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

(Reset indent) almost unrelated, but your wiki tool is mispelling "xun rao" as "sun rao" 19px Chieftain Alex 22:02, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Oops. I need to increase my QA budget. Thanks for reporting, it's fixed now. Tub 22:09, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Probably should have asked before..[edit]

Currently I'm using a 60kb page of repeated code, and I'm just wondering if there is a neat way of repeating a small string of code the same number of times as the number in an input. It just needs to display the number of images that are put in the input. I think a nested if statement might be more server intensive than just a big lookup table :/ Any suggestions? 19px Chieftain Alex 18:57, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

You can shorten the code a lot using a construct like this:
{{#ifexpr: {{{1}}} >= 1 | [[Image:...] }}
{{#ifexpr: {{{1}}} >= 2 | [[Image:...] }}
{{#ifexpr: {{{1}}} >= 3 | [[Image:...] }}
But really? Do it the proper way. Tub 19:38, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Nicholas hunt coordinator bug[edit]

Apostrophes in area names in the onclick attributes haven't been escaped with the result that 19 of the popups don't work. The following regular expression should fix that:

s/(\d?, ')([^']*)'([^']*'\))/\1\2\'\3 (demo).

I hope you see this, the tool is very much still being used. 18:25, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Silly me. I used htmlspecialchars like I should, but forgot that a second escaping has to be done for the javascript. Thanks for reporting. I've used a simple str_replace("'", "\\'", $name).
I'm not sure why nobody reported this earlier, but I've added contact info to the link.
I also added this to allow the script to automatically mark visited areas. I couldn't use such tricks when I made the script since the wiki didn't support the required functions back then. Now it does. Tub 20:16, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Sorry but I can't get any of the explorable areas to "pop up" in IE 9 even with pop up blocker turned off. It works ok in firefox.


Just to let you know, I've created an article using that sandbox page at List of bugs. --Silver Edge 05:58, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Nick the Traveller Hunt Tool[edit]

Hi, is it possible to automate the tool to automatically clear and reset at the appropriate time each week. Also with Nick's location being continually moved from each cycle, would it be useful to change the search options to

1.I've searched the location from last time and he isn't there 2.I've vanquished the area and he isn't there 3. I've found him!

Just a thought or two - glad it's still in use after all this time

I thought I had a cron-job to clear it automatically, but I cannot find it. Weird. Since I don't play GW1 any more, I'm not really interested in investing time into the script. Too busy getting my asura to level 80. ;)
However, if you simply mark an area as "I'm searching here", then abort your search, the script should detect the new week and update itself. Tub (talk) 17:31, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Hey thanks for this - the script does indeed update itself automatically! Goodness knows what we would do without the Tool. I suspect Nick would not be found some weeks. Thanks :]

Greetings -

How about an option to say *what* Nick is looking for once he's been found? As it is, you have to find him to see what he's looking for that week, or wait for it to update on the main page.

Otherwise, what a GREAT tool. Thanks for doing this!

Nope. If someone finds him, they're supposed to edit the wiki. I don't plan to add any features that would make my tool useful for anything but running. Tub (talk) 17:27, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Update required[edit]

Hi Tub. I've just moved all of the Nicholas the Traveler files to new file locations on the wiki based on the ingame locations. I've taken the liberty of preparing an update for in my sandbox. Apologies for the inconvenience, but I think that I have added the correct names now. -Chieftain Alex 19:26, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Wow, what a service. I had to make some minor adjustments to your code, but having all the file paths was immensely useful. The tool has been updated.
It seems like another cycle is almost over. Make sure to ping me when it is, as that requires some manual intervention. Tub (talk) 20:32, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
Better yet, before the cycle resets, edit User:Tub/Sandbox/NicholasSecondVisit to use the new cutoff time. That should clear the list; the tool should work fine starting the monday after the edit. Tub (talk) 20:56, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
ah I forgot to encode the commas >< + I'll see if I remember to edit that. Thanks again both for updating the tool and hosting the hunt tool itself! -Chieftain Alex 21:03, 28 May 2014 (UTC)