User talk:NuclearVII/Skill Balance And Revamps

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The first things off the top of my head are down. Will add stuff later.

Things to do:

• sinsplits.
• Aod.
• Dagger Chains
• Shitway.
• And maybe a VoD revamp. -- NUKLEAR IIV 15:16, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

added some ele shit. -- NUKLEAR IIV 18:34, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Notice the careful bolding of every important suggestion. See how kind I am. I don't kill ducks for fun. -- NUKLEAR IIV 18:45, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Pretty good overall. An idea for shattering assault- keep recharge, keep ench removal, make it do + damage- +20 normally, +30 (or even 40, if it isn't too much) when removing enchants. That way, you get heavy pressure on blockweb, but you don't get insane sundercrits. This would almost halve the damage, while keeping it as good pressure (about 108 total against enchanted foes with +30, about 88 total against non-enchanted foes). I also like the idea of making the "shattering" apply more... maybe give it a flat + 20 or +30 damage and make it apply cracked armor on enchant removal, since it is shattering something? Or just kill blockwebs, then this skill becomes unnecessary. As I said, I don't have too many issues with the list, though stoning seems to do slightly too much damage for a ranged KD. 10-50 might be more reasonable. --Kalas Silvern 06:14, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

You have ranger on there twice- and escape is exceedingly obnoxious, any ideas on how to fix it? That and rending touch seem to be two of the biggest issues with Shitway. --Kalas Silvern 09:03, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I'll get to them, eventually. As for stoning, it doesn't have the 3 sec KD gale has, so its okay. -- NUKLEAR IIV 13:56, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Added more stuff, commentary appreciated in short, brief, readable sized paragraphs. -- NUKLEAR IIV 14:50, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Alright, new feedback

• Totally approve of the non-AoE scythe idea. Maybe make it a pvp only change if Izzy can do it. This would force a rework of some skills like Victorius sweep, Eremites attack, and Zealous Sweep though.
  • If the AoE was kept, an interesting idea could be to make it similar to the AoE on death blossom- normal damage to target, set, non-boostable to others (10-20 or so?) That way, attack skills don't affect it, but you still get a little pressure on anyone stupid enough to bunch up.
  • For the non-AoE scythe, I'd say make Zealous Sweep give energy for adjacent foes, that way it's good e-management, but only damages one foe. Same for the other two.
• Escape also seems good, since it makes them killable.
• Still worried about potential of overnerf to Shattering Assault... it's interesting because it's base damage, but that also makes it OP... and of course, adding a bonus for utilizing the shattering aspect makes it more active. My previous idea is still somewhat OP- maybe go with 30 base damage per hit, one enchant removed by using the skill (so only one per use), and apply cracked armor if an enchant is removed? It weakens the insanity of sundercrits while still retaining mediocre dps, removes enchants at a slower rate (1 every 4 seconds, instead of 2 every 4), but gives a bonus with a condition that is uncommon and interesting to use.
• Agree with making ele skills for eles in general, I'd actually like to see shadowsteps move in the same direction for sins- no more teleporting wars/dervs, no more shockwave spike, etc.
• Minion mastery idea is extremely interesting. I'd get a bit scared due to Dark Bond (permanent 75% damage reduction = ew, though it is an enchant) running around if I was in AB, but overall it'd be a very interesting change.

Just brainstorming, but a lot of your ideas make sense. Also, for shadowstep sacrifice, that could provide extremely interesting synergy with Desperate strike as it is now, assuming it isn't changed. at 15 dagger mastery, you need to be at 80% or less for the bonus. I have to ask, would a short recharge (15ish seconds) be broken with a 25% sacrifice... or a scaling sacrifice... It'd be interesting to see a pressure build where a 3 skill combo starts with desperate strike. Alright, done rambling, still a good job. --Kalas Silvern 21:48, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Lowering recharges might be possible to promote more skilled Shadowstep play, but that would require some fine-tuning. I'd say they are powerful enough with 30 reload and 25% sac. -- NUKLEAR IIV 15:32, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Yep. I said it would have to be a new shadowstep, and it would need some serious limitations, like half range, removes hexes from target/enchants from player, something to prevent anything other than a quick recharging L-O-D combo. The idea was to open up sins to a second type of play, one that would be more useful in the GvG/HA environment, since it would allow pressure + spike assistance instead of only being able to spike. The issue I still see is that on the frontline, you'll have a monk (or should), who can heal you to allow that step every few seconds, while it still has a debilitating health loss for splits. Of course, I'd also say make it sin only to prevent abuse by Dervs, Wars, and eles. It was just an idea I'd been toying around with for a while, thought I'd see if anyone else found it interesting. Course, implementing anything like that would probably cause mass rage-quitting among GvGers, since it would go against their desire for 2 war, 3 monk, 3 filler builds. --Kalas Silvern 05:06, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Contents 1 My thoughts 2 So i herd u want an input from me?... 3 My input on the Elementalist 4 From a purely PvE point of view... 5 Dagger Chains 6 Added more shit 7 Lol 8 Ward Against Melee 9 Hamstring 10 Howdy! 11 2 days from now.. 12 NEED YOUR INPUT NAO 13 These changes 14 New changes 15 No. =D 16 SF 17 YOU SIR 18 Shadowsteps 19 New formatting 20 You have a weird sense of balance :< 21 Norn Skills 22 My Thoughts too 23 =< <3

[edit] My thoughts

Pretty good overall. I agree with most of it. The one thing I suggest is keep in mind how Izzy will recieve it. For example, suggesting 3 energy skills will probably scare him. I get the feeling Izzy is more scared of change than most people. I mean, a 5 energy Hamstring would be fine. That on a "Coward!" bar would be pretty leet right?

As far as Gale goes, I don't think 7 or less is good enough. A Mesmer can just use Glyph of Lesser Energy instead of speccing Inspiration and bam, he can Gale. It should be 12 or less. non-air eles shouldn't be able to use the best skill in the attribute. Of course I liked the idea of scaling the KD duration with Air Magic, but Izzy said it's not possible. But really, nothing is stopping a Mesmer from speccing 8 in Air Magic for Gale.

Escape: I disagree. The problem is that Rangers can spam Scythe skills without running out of energy. Escape is fine as long as Rangers are using bows. Either way though, Izzy thinks these abusive builds are "neat". Well fuck him. I don't think we'll see the end of shitway anytime soon.

Wail of Doom: Too sarcastic, Izzy doesn't like that kinda crap. Notice how seriously he takes Shard's suggestions? If you're serious I think it would be overkill. I think WoD just needs to be interruptable and actually have a cost. Either energy or 25% sac, which is quite a lot really. I think that would put it more on par with Gale, which is fair with a 1s cast time and even though it doesn't last as long it snares which is very valuable. Alot of kills happen simply because the target is snared. Why do you think everyone Shocks or Bulls before adren spikes? It makes it easy to kill the person. But yeah WoD just needs a less insignificant cost + cast time imo.

Shadowsteps: I think that's overkill too. The problem skills should be nerfed imo. Well I mean, ideally the mechanic should be taken out of the game but that would be like taking Scythes out. Just ain't gonna happen. --TimeToGetIntense 22:29, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Meh, I think the shadowsteps weren't that overkill. Sure, it's a bit painful, but... meh, the sac cost can be adjusted. YOu have to agree, however, that it fixes most of the problems that comes with shadowsteps.

I liked the escape buff (it is actually a buff if your purpose is to, you know, esacpe). I like it because it kills shitway to some degree, and it also pushes it to be used more in environments where the mobility is capitalized on. It doesn't kill the skill totally, which is, you'know, good.

As for wail, it's not that sarcastic, is it? I may reword it, but Izzy ought to get a hint now and then. And for what it's worth, I think Izzy ignores shard because shard, to be frank, bitches about how fucked up the game is and what kind of an anus izzy is being. Tbh, I don't think his problem is with sarcasm. Its with constant insults.

You know gale better than I do, probably. On another note, Gole needs a final nerf.

Thanks for the feedback. -- NUKLEAR IIV 13:47, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Added more stuff. -- NUKLEAR IIV 14:24, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

The only reason Gale can be considered the best skill in the attribute is because it only requires 5 Air Magic, making it perfect for secondaries, IMHO. 145.94.74.23 08:58, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] So i herd u want an input from me?...

you appear to be an old hand with an overview about the use of skills in pvp to me. Though i have to admit that i'm a rather rarely pvp-enjoying player, especially regarding HA. For example i can't remember any times with a 3sec-kd-"old gale". But i have to admit that your balancing proposals appear according to your explications reasonable to me.
Ele's spammable minor damage skills for example really tend to appear useful to new players, though they are in fact not really that useful. I thought of them as "emergency use skill" when running out of energy, but this isn't doable with such an energy cost, a e-management skill is a better alternative here. :P
I don't understand why Anet is generall only having 5, 10, 15 or 25 energy skills at all. I was surprised about the new update with the 1-energy nec skills, though i'd also be happy about more precise energy cost, like your idea of 3 energy.
I also agree that GoLE is, despite past nerfs, still the best e-management skill.
I suppose you by now feel nothing but hatred toward WoD. idk why they even changed the skill's functionality, as it was an, though seemingly orphaned skill by the crowd, quite useful imo. But i also love the idea of the new functionality. The problem is that this powerful effect is not handled with enough care.
Parasitic Bond always appeared useful to me, and i also knew it's a good cover hex as it makes the caster even happier if its removed more often for some extra health. Maybe this skill is really too useful for an overhex build.
Despite the fact that minions have at 16 Death Magic a cap of 10 and are still degenerating more and more health over time, it's a very powerful pve build as BotM is in opposition to the useless Verata's Sacrifice a very powerful healing source, and minions can fool the AI quite good and find use as nice body blockers. With your old new system 20 minions would likely still be easy to maintain, and actually be too powerful imo. I suppose anet didn't think players could build up such big armies with the degen, what wasn't the case as we know.^^
Your new Escape also sounds interesting, though i have to admit again, i neither play nor watch HA.
Shadowstepping/ AoD is indeed very powerful, as it also takes out a part of the condition for melee in order to do their damage: reach your target. so i also like this idea of a 1/4health sac.
Paragon general: Ah well, the imbagon with his unstrippable uberhuge-AoE shouts and chants. Though this is yoru first proposal i have to disagree, i wouldn't like the thought of having a specific class that has limited place in a party, as this would limit build creativity. My proposal would be to add a cap for multiple effects from shouts and chants, any drawback that balances these skills. That should be a problem since the release of NF...one user (sry dude, i don't remember your name yet) came up with the idea of removing a shout/chant with a crit, though this could favor the sin class to much again and is also possibly an too easy way to remove those effects. I'd still prefer an "Silenced" condition (-not refering to "dazed") against the user itself, or a "deaf" condition that decreases the effectiveness of shouts/chants by about 6 rank and decreases the duration by 50%.
Scythes: Their dps is seemingly indeed really high, and the high crit damage is possibly too useful for A/Ds. Compared to other two handed weapons like hammers or bows, i can't exactly figure out why they also have this AoE feature. But i wouldn't want to take it out, lowering the attack speed of them should be nice.
Ursan Blessing. This skill can destroy everything - it even destoyed PvE. It's disappointing that Anet seemignly became lazier and grabbier. I mean, EotN has about the same price as a campaign, though there are only very few skills and no char slots, most monsters are remodeled or use existing ones, several spots of the dungeons are copy-pasted, and even for the Ursan "Form" skills they didn't have the time to create a special model. so far so good. But the really insolent part is that Ursan simply keeps his imbalanced status to bring the players up to buy EotN as a key to PvE cakewalk. —ZerphaThe Improver 16:13, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

So.. you agree that the list and I are awesome? -- NUKLEAR IIV 19:12, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't want to exaggerate now ;) —ZerphaThe Improver 02:23, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] My input on the Elementalist

Dear Nuke,

you asked for my input and I will try to give it, but I only really know the Elementalist, so I'll stick to that.

Stoning: It is funny you mention this skill, as I have recently 'rediscovered' it. I believe it might have potential as a great spiking skill in PvP because of its 1 second casting time (and a very low recharge). There may be more powerful skills, but this one is harder to predict and 105 damage on a armor 60 target isn't too bad. The only 1 sec casting spell that deals more damage is Liquid Flame, but that is a fire magic skill. That being said, it could use some love as the knock-down while weakened bit simply isn't pratical. Which is why I brought the Ward of Weakness bug to Izzy's attention: if you could simply instant knock-down (and then weaken) enemy warriors who get near you, it's potential would increase (and it would fit earth magic as a short ranged defensive spell). Other ways to fix it would be lowering Ebon Hawk's casting time to 1 second, give Earth a reliable way to cause weakness. I like your suggestion too (a lot actually), but I am concerned it might be a bit too powerful (even Water Trident and Gust, which are the basis of your suggestion, have conditional knockdown). So to make sure Izzy accepts it, and it won't get abused, I'd give it 10 seconds recharge. Just to be on the safe side.

Ward Against Melee: I agree it should belong to (earth) elementalists only. However, I doubt your suggestion is neccesary. Personally, I wouldn't run it under 10 Earth Magic anyway because of the huge downtime. other professions shouldn't have too much trouble getting Earth Magic 10.

Gale: Unavoidable, ranged and unexpectable 3-second knockdowns are extremly powerful and Izzy has clearly stated that he has no intention of ever bringing them back. I understand why you would want them, but I doubt you'll ever get it past him.

These are my few cents, I don't have any more time to expand on them. Hopefully they give you something useful to work with. Keep up the good work, you never know when Izzy decides to sue your suggestions. 87.210.150.58 14:34, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Continue

Glyph of Lesser Energy: Reasonable suggestion, though the exhaustion may be a bit too much. Elementalist would feel it if they wanted to combine it with other spells that cause exhaustion.

Aura of Restoration: Adding a small amount of regeneration (like 1...3...3) would suffice in my opinion.

The spamspells: It would be interesting to see a lower energy version of them. You forgot to mention Stone Daggers, though those have the added bonus of being able to bypass Protective Spirt and Spirit Bond.

Also, I'd like to add another section: Attunements. In their current form, they are a little to vulnerable to my taste. A recharge of 30 would fix that, making them a little more reliable.

Which brings me to my last point: elite energy management. In my opinion, one should never need additional energy management besides an elite energy management skill. I don't know how to fix it though. Any suggestions?

These are my comments, I hope you enjoyed reading them, maybe they're even a bit helpful. Good luck on thyne epic quest in balancing, thou willst needeth it. ~Nicky. 87.210.150.58 08:55, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I'll look into elite energy managements, thanks for bringing them up.

I think I mentioned stone daggers, aren't they in the links?

I love pretty much all of my ele changes, glad to see you agree with most of them.

Glad to see you back, Nicky. -- NUKLEAR IIV 14:00, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you did mention Stone Daggers, my apologies for that. Also, for you, I'll be back anytime. 145.94.74.23 08:55, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

One more thing: Shattering Assault doesn't deal bonus damage, it deals instead of damage. That means that it can do 110 damage at best, and it's damage drops dramatically versus armored targets. 145.94.74.23 20:23, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

No, it sets your damage to 50. It can sundercrit, which is about "-120" "-120". -- NUKLEAR IIV 16:50, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok, but that is bad why? You have less than 4% chance to deal a lot of spike damage, on an Assassin...yeah, you're right, that's overpowered. My bad. 145.94.74.23 14:08, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

No, it always crits because of kiting and crit strikes. It's about 100 damage without the sunder trigger. 200 dmg unblockable prot ignore damage is where it's broken. -- NUKLEAR IIV 19:23, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Seriously, one thing I don't get about you PvP people is this: once you know that something (scythe, dagger dual attack) deals that much more damage on a critical hit, why kite? Why do you move away from something that will always be faster than you, which only results in giving them free auto criticals? That is something I really don't understand. Just spread out and "Stand Your Ground!" and the biggest part of the problem is fixed. 145.94.74.23 09:54, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and you exagerate once again. At 16 dagger mastery, the critical hit chance is roughly 24%. Add +16% for 16 Critical Stikes and you get 40% chance. And that is making assumptions in your favor, in reality (excluding auto criticals) it will actually be less. The 4% I mentioned is the chance for a critical AND a sundering on both attacks. Now, I know there are ways to increase the chance for a critical hit, but that also means that you need more skills in order to get it, making it less broken. This skill is far from the guarantueed 240 damage spike you make it out to be, not to mention that it has to be chained as well, giving your monks lots of time to anticipate it. 145.94.74.23 10:03, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Its so obvious that you don't know what you talk about. You know what, try it. Go to TA, get a SA assassin on your ass, and don't kite. We "pvp people"? Wow. Please screencap the swearing your monk will send you, so "we" can go "lol". Second, It is not a guaranteed 240 spike. But it is a guaranteed 200 dmg spike. Argue this, and you are bad. 200 dmg dual is fucking crippling. When that 40 damage procs, It's fucking irresistible. And all of this is unblockable and unprottable. -- NUKLEAR IIV 11:01, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and don't waste people's time by arguing semantics. -- NUKLEAR IIV 11:03, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

So you'd rather get more damage than a friendly relationship with your monk? Kiting is ok, but kiting when you're already under attack sounds rather pointless. Please explain to me then why it is not. 145.94.74.23 19:51, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Then don't waste my eyes by 'fucking' everything. I am not here to win popularity contests, I am here to get the facts straight. Get your facts straight and you'll hear no argument from me *cough*180, countersblockingyoustatedislikinginfirstentryofskillbalance*cough*. 145.94.74.23 19:54, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

You obviously don't know what kiting actually is. If you want to contribute, go away. You're not helping by being ignorant. -- NUKLEAR IIV 10:45, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Sure, I'll leave if you want me to. I'd just like to add that I'm glad Izzy is the skill balancer and not you though. That should say enough. You're missing things a real balancer would not. 145.94.74.23 12:08, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Guess I'd better jump in. I'm one of the staunchest defenders of shattering assault. However, it NEEDS a change. It is a bit too strong- maybe not as strong as it is said to be, but it is too strong. IMO, the best solutions are either make it blockable while still removing the enchants, limit the enchants removed to 1, or make it + damage for around +20-30 at high dagger mastery. The first keeps it as a defense breaker while making the obscene spikes somewhat stoppable (wild strike would need a change though... perhaps make it a dual with less + damage?), the second makes it prottable through skill (skill = good), and the third merely reduces its damage. I like the second option myself, keeps it as a spike, but no longer a totally unstoppable one that also renders prot monks useless. --Kalas Silvern 23:40, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

I find it odd that at the top of your skill balance, you write that you want skills that ignore blocking to be buffed, yet at the same time you think this skill is overpowered because it ignores blocking. I mean, make up your mind dude! 65.54.79.23 23:56, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

I find it odd that you actually have to comment without, y'know, knowing why I'm suggesting that. Since I am in a good mood, here, lemme explain myself, just for this once:I WANT ACTIVE DEFENSE TO BE BUFFED, GENIUS. I don't care whether it is blocks or anything else - if it is active, it is good in my books. I have repeatedly stated that promotion of active defense was good for the game, and, at the same time, detrimental on the grounds of poor implementation. Poor implementation, being, anti block skills. By buffing active defense, you passively nuke mindlessly bad gimmicks, such as dervishes, and by buffing anti block attacks, you allow warriors a chance against SoD. If you remember the past meta, the lack of viable anti block was a problem, but it was pretty much the only problem. TL;DR: I want active defense meta back, with the only problem with it being fixed. -- NUKLEAR IIV 23:18, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] From a purely PvE point of view...

I agree with almost everything you said (of course, assuming all of it would apply for both PvE and PvP). There are only two points I disagree with:

• Removing the cap for Minion Masters. Your ideas about having to manage Blood of the Master and about having the degen to depend on the number of minions are very good, but I don't think the game's engine can actually deal with degen below 10 pips of degeneration (as in, we know it's there, but unless you're rellying specifically on something that adds health regeneration to heal your minions - which IMO would be a waste - having fourty minions would not give higher degen than having ten minions). Before the nerf to Verata's Sacrifice, the extra degen was important since VS heals basically through regen (so eventually VS would become useless), but right now, I don't think it would make a difference. Even the idea that the Minion Master would have to manage the number of minions versus the health sacrifice of Blood of the Master, despite being good, would not work in some areas: those with so many enemies that you don't actually have to bother healing your minions, you may just keep making new ones to replace those who have fallen. While that's not the majority of the game, I believe there are enough situations like that in the game to make a removal of the minion cap too powerful in PvE.

(I loved the 50 minions army too. Inside Sorrow's Furnace, doing the Orozar quest, once my Necromancer saved my entire party from a huge wipe thanks to the impossibly high number of enemies that was possible in the "defend this NPC again waves of enemy attacks" kind of situation.)

• Lowering the damage of scythes, or removing the AoE (remember, I'm talking about PvE only). This mostly thanks to Hard Mode: due to the high level difference and the high armor of enemies in there, the base damage done by the scythes becomes almost negligible. In fact, I may be doing something wrong, but the only profession I can't find a role for in Hard Mode are the dervishes. Lowering their damage would hurt them even more.

(But in PvP, I do agree they definitely need some kind of nerf.) Erasculio 15:13, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

For dervishes, Use an obsidian tank, a Melandru with SY or something, not hard to get into parties, tbh. As for minions and degen, well, I know that would exceed 10, and the idea there is that greater degen = Greater pressure to use Botm = Control of minions. meh. -- NUKLEAR IIV 16:39, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dagger Chains

Would you like me to get a list of ideas together for dagger chain changes? I was thinking of dividing the changes into pressure oriented and spike oriented changes. If so, I'll probably start work on the site in about 2 weeks- finals and all that. --Kalas Silvern 20:12, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I got my finals too. Sure, go right ahead. -- NUKLEAR IIV 14:05, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Added more shit

discus nao. I really crapped the Rt one, but wth. Though, I like the SoD change. Has the ring of truth about it.

THE LIST GROWS! I NEED MORE FEEDBACK! -- NUKLEAR IIV 16:01, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lol

At the Ursan bit. No suggestions at all, just blow it out of the water. I agree, but thats probably not gonna happen. More realistically, I'd suggest-

• A. Making your energy 30 and armor 60 to start off, and have attacks cost adrenaline/energy, to make all professions have it the same (to go along with the idea that Ursan is infact, its own profession).
• B. Make the attacks attacks, not skills (Rendering it vulnerable to blocks and blind)
• C. Follow the avatar format. Anet had a good format with avatars, making a predetermined duration and once it ends it is disabled for 120 seconds.

Just some ideas..-Warior Kronos 17:47, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Then add it. Tbh, I guess anyone can, just don't fuck up the format. -- NUKLEAR IIV 18:52, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ward Against Melee

i would suggest that instead of using eath magic, use energy storage. more eles have high energy storage than they do earth magic and other profs can't do ele secondary 2 get it (i know this is all hypothetical, but I wanted to have an input=D)--Sum Mesmer Guy contribs 15:15, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Its a good idea for stopping mesmers, but any air ele can pack that along with bsurg. The point is to achieve a total earth midliner. Also, you get 5 nuke points for making a positive input. -- NUKLEAR IIV 20:10, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

and nuke points r useful 4 what?--Sum Mesmer Guy contribs 21:42, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Bragging rights. -- NUKLEAR IIV 06:31, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Why would you use WAM with earth magic lower than 10 anyway. --Lann 16:21, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Pretty much all tainted warders and Bsurges use it at 8 spec. -- NUKLEAR IIV 18:32, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hamstring

Could be made into an adrenaline cripple version of sever artery. --Lann 16:22, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

And crippling slash in the toilet? Tbh, I prefer when cripple is on energy skills - promotes more skill use that way. -- NUKLEAR IIV 18:34, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah we sure have seen those promotions go into effect huh --Lann 20:32, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

That's because the changes izzy made to promote energy attacks were dumb. -- NUKLEAR IIV 11:28, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Howdy!

Thought i drop in and say hi, reading on you suggestion, some i take and some not so much

General: 3 energy skills i like, i know you wouldn't just stop at only 3 energy skill, i can see some skills that can be 7 or 8 energy cost.

A lot of your idea are based on keeping profession pure and not expanding into there secondaries, i know with that kind of thinking we get stuff like sway and imbagon, but wasn't the game thought around the idea of 2 profession and a single char?

Warrior: i like the idea of putting unblocking skills into place, and that defense need to be timed instead of the set it and forget it way of thinking, possible put in few more skill that are unblockable, but will require and condition like Soldier's strike

Monk: So your basically you want SoD to be an elite guardian... some how i feel thats this is a bad idea, thought you wanted to counter passive defenses, this would definitely see some use and be just as difficult to deal with.

Ele: Earth magic buff i'll go with, but i don't think turning skills into a copy of another skill wouldn't work imo, trying to keep function of each line clear. I like the fact that most earth skills have additional effect when a condition is made, now with stoning, weakness is hard to come by in earth line, ebon hawk is a conditional weakness and ward of weakness which does a decent job. i think more options for weakness in the earth line would be fun to play.

necro: WoD...what 10%sac, 1 energy, 1/4 cast 10r not good enough for you /sarcasm, seriously if you got someone spamming this little sucker on recharge, a diversion here should put him in his place amirite, all tho would like to see a 3/4 to 1 sec cast time on this

Don't know if you have notice but i really don't like it when skills get nerf to uselessness when they could have been nerf to reasonable, i get gas from it >.<, and verata come in mind, don't think the change was really needed, i think a better solution is to ave it only effect your 3-4 closests minion, then drop the recharge to VIABLE, your opinion on that?

Ranger/sway. sigh...ranger on there own arn't bad, but if them a yo-yo and they are OP, yes on ending when they hit, or just add a few more skills that can get rid of stances, we only have hand full of them so a few more wouldn't hurt imo.

Sin: i really don't like the sac idea, for the sole reason that i don't want to start of with a disadvantage when i more likely overextend to get into the enemies back/midline like that. possible add that to one shadowstep, but not all, you could always have them so they require a condtion to be met in oder to shadow step, ( moving, higher/lower health, casting/attacking foes) that way it requires skill to use, and notjust push a button and your there, Like the idea of having AoD having degen on you, or will only work if target it suffering for a shadow/deadly line hex. few idea.

i could add more, but it's late, tell me what you think--Metal Sazz 03:48, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, not the maker of the list, but here's my stances. You're somewhat on target with the warrior.

As far as monks go, that is active defense. Not the change I'd make personally, but it keeps it active, and promotes skilled play via fake spiking and mixing it up. Eles- well, The idea on stoning was to provide an alternative to gale that would help to shut down blockways- see the reasons for unnerfing gale. Weakness is terrible in the earth line, and imo, conditions other than DW are quite weak anyway due to the RC meta for monks. Necro- diversion still isn't a good solution, especially in the arenas, which is the main place it causes problems. Ranger- non-ranger gimmicks that only use ranger defenses need to die. Escape being at the forefront of that list. That stance is idiotic as it is, and they are that bad if they're using escape and a melee weapon due to being difficult for spellcasters to kill/stop, and being nearly invulerable to melee. Anti stance skills shouldn't need a buff due to a single stance being insanely OP. Sin: You shouldn't overextend, and that's why shadow prison promotes unskilled play. It's essentially a suicide spike, which is bad. In my opinion, controlled shadowsteps with sacrifices (not overkill of course) are the way to go. Perhaps not even a sacrifice, but maybe add a ward like spell to smiting prayers for monks... call it "Light of Revelation", make it cost 15-20 energy, but make it so that you cannot shadowstep to a target within that area. Limits shadowsteps at the flag stand, but also can be interesting as a way to protect npcs- stick at a common split spot, and now they need to charge the person AND lose their hex if they're using shadow prison (enchant if using AoD).

Ok, sin was longer than I expected... still, glad we have lots of people trying to evaluate/solve problems. Btw, if you have any dagger chain ideas, tell either myself or Nuklear- I'll be working on a change list soon. --Kalas Silvern 04:29, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Okay, first off, thanks for the input - I need all I can get.

As for your points, I didn't know I focused that much on single - profession synergy, but now that you mention it, I guess I did. I'll think about that. Also, SoD was always meant to be an elite guardian, but it was sadly either too strong or too weak. I want it to be a guardian that can only go on one guy. For the earth line, I think stoning is better off without a condition. As Kalas said, RC just laughs at conditions these days. On another level, I think RC is too strong as well, but that is a whole other issue.

Diversion is not a counter to WoD, I am tired of saying that. Diversion has a 3 second cast time - more than enough to avoid it if you are semi intelligent.

I am thinking about vereta, but I feel that it was just too strong for what it did. Still, nuking it was a bad move, and I do have an idea about how to fix that.

I like sac of shadow steps. But adding conditions - I need to consider it, it might work. -- NUKLEAR IIV 14:46, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

I say the suggestion on SoD was passive because it would make it 10 sec of 75%blocking that recharges in 2 secs, even if you could have only one active at a time, monks would cast this on themselves and be immune to physical damage while guardian everyone else, that how i look at it. For stoning you always could add different condition beside weakness, like KDs when weakness, blind or cripple, then add the 3 sec KD and exhaution part, i don't think KD should be as simple as just pressing 2, but yeah in order for this to work, RC needs to be dealt with.

For Wod could away have it so it either sac twice amount, or recharge 2 or 3 times as long if the target is either (not)casting/(not)attacking/(non)enchanted or (non)hexed, i think enchanted would be viable as it would decrease the use on healer and eles a great deal. then up the sac cost to 17%. ranger, ill stick with my improve anti stance skills or at least have more skills that interact with them, because of that stance and other stances it's hard to get at the little buggers.

Sin. interesting idea on the ward, i would have the shadow step stop at the edge of the ward if outside and not go anywhere in the ward, and make it divine favors with 50% chance to fail with 4 or less to make sure only monk would carry it, and for dagger chain how do you want them to be buff cause i have few idea on when they fail. and just don't feel sac is viable on shadow step, sure put it on the more annoying one but not all.--Metal Sazz 18:52, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

and for AoD take my first idea on it where target need to be hex with a sin hex and have the enchantment end when the hex ends and keep it a maintainable with that condition--Metal Sazz 19:00, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

I'll give SoD a second look. I don't think monks will maintain it on themselves, because, it is, y'know, an anti spike tool? And a monk with self defense is pretty leet. But still, I'll think about it again. For stoning, sorry, but I like my change. It's not brainless KD as you put it - it carries exhaustion, a hefty penalty on it's own. people pressing 2 would just get wasted.

A little bit of history here, when Hammers were big time in GvG back in proph, people always carried Hammer bash, even when they had devastating hammer. The reason? conditional KD's are bad. -- NUKLEAR IIV 23:27, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 2 days from now..

I'm doing a great overhaul, adding more useless skills, and (shockingly) adding some Pve changes. I need more input. nao. (Read: Comment only if you are serious). -- NUKLEAR IIV 23:29, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

I actually agree with virtually everything you say here. I especially agree with your note about Hamstring. 10e on a warrior is a bit heavy for a melee cripple. I also liked your suggestion for MM. Any change that keeps gameplay the same but requires more thought is good in my book. One idea that I remember reading on a discussion page somewhere on the Wiki is that Shadowform just needs to be changed completely. It's either insanely overpowered, or broken rubbish that noone would ever consider using. That, to me, demands a functionality change. KrelusDerian 01:03, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Agreed Krelus (on most points). Shadow form... well, I personally think it should become a pve only skill, while they make a new elite for pvp. Other than that, agreed. --Kalas Silvern 18:45, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what can be done about shadow form. That skill is so poorly conceived - it has no place in pvp or pve. Sigh... Any ideas? I don't want to keep the original mechanic. Maybe make it into a real form? -- NUKLEAR IIV 08:30, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Maybe instead of "All attacks made on you MISS" you make it "All attacks made on you are BLOCKED". And make it a stance. It retains its potency but has a sane counter, as opposed to the current way of removing it, which is getting lucky with something like Chilblains or Hex Eater Vortex. Krelus Derian 16:13, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Alternatively, make rending touch a touch skill. :p -- Armond Warblade 16:41, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

The problem with Escape in Shitway is the "lol no kiting in mah arena" aspect of it. Change that before Izzy sees. -- Armond Warblade 14:31, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, with my change, you can just smash their head in if they choose to attack. Besides, I don't think the speed boost is the real issue. The unkillability and the easiness of play is. -- NUKLEAR IIV 16:50, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] NEED YOUR INPUT NAO

Directed at kalas. NAO. -- NUKLEAR IIV 18:25, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I feel very proud and manly for the MM changes. -- NUKLEAR IIV 18:43, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] These changes

Would break the game. 212.183.136.194 13:27, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

dat was rawrrawr. Srsly you need to think about these changes abit. Death's charge. Death's retreat. Basically, shadowstep to the enemy/ally and gain health.

-shadowsteps and diez-

Wod idea is just laughable. i agree thats its OP and gay but atleast make a good suggestion instead of saying 4 sec cast.

Hamstering? 3 energy with 8 recharge? Why would anyone bother to go cripslash? x_X

Buffing flare to 3 energy...what diffrence would that srsly make?(not to mention that flare is alrdy OP. just look at flareway!) same thing with stoning. people wont go terra eles because a unconditional KD when there is water trident.

SF is fine as it is. people dont go much sf outside RA anyway. Oni has said it before and he will say it again: if you really see a SF team; just swap to fire shield and watch pressure die.

Ward against meele nerf lololol. tiz not op moar.

and what the FUX were ya thinking about when ya wrote about Faintheartedness? To quote rawrawr; why the fuck would you run a curses nec which can only curse 5/30 seconds? you wouldnt.

like the MM idea tho, oni wants strong and manly minionsOni 13:47, 19 June 2008 (UTC) Also: the idea of paragons is lame for so many reasons. think; some nubs who just started the game both go paragons. they try to team up as they start the game and when they send invite a text comes up from nowhere and says FAIL YOU WHOREZ PARAGONS DOESNT GET TO TEAM UP TOGHETER -autouninstall- Not to mention PuGs. and that paragons are generally shit if you dont run multiply of them.

Now now, oni knows what you guys will say. i saw a leet guild winning tournaments with 1 paragon! That does not matter. think less elitism. not to mention RA. what will happen if you get teamed up with another paragon? someone gets kicked and dishonorable?Oni 13:53, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

There isn't coding in place to implement that change. Rawrawr Dinosaur 13:57, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Also; AoD is by no way the most overpowered shadow step/sin build at the moment, especially in sinsplit. The recall nerf buttfucked AoD unless you run 2 of them, and tbh that mega mobility isn't needed anymore as most teams aren't very splittable now. Rawrawr Dinosaur 13:59, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Not to mention that with yar 25% saccing idea, AoD would result in a total of sacrafice 50% health+ 10 energy +1 pip of energy regen. NotyOni 14:07, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

4 sec cast for WoD is worth it. Carry signet of concentration, for crying out loud, that skill is nothing short of complete killing one person'.

It's called bar compression. People run cripslash because of it.

My proposed stoning is win and awesome. It's win to have unconditional ranged KD. As for flare change, it's to get better dps per energy - stop being elitist, amirite?

A fire shield won't stop aoe 100 damage. And, if you read the actual suggestion, you'll see that I want to rework it not because it is broken, but it promotes bad gimmicky play.

WaM is not a nerf for earth eles. It's boring to see that skill on bsurge, play moar gvg pls.

Faintheartedness is broken so much it's not funny. At least my change requires the user to actually have skill.

Paragon's are pretty win, both in pve and PvP, even when there is one. My imbagon wishes to fuck you.

Also, ı expect the character screen to display some sort of warning. Same goes for RA.

The fact still remains that AoD sins can buttfuck your base without any fear for their lives. -- NUKLEAR IIV 14:15, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but you're wrong. Disabling yourself for 4 seconds is stupid, limiting your secondary is stupid, not being able to kite for 4 god damn seconds is stupid. WoD is pretty easy to get around anywhere but TA, where even there veiling and not wasting energy like a tard gets around it easy. Better dps per energy doesnt matter. If you're spamming flare, that's all you are doing. You have sucky damage either way, whether your energy pool is high or not. The fact of the matter is, nobody would run flare on a normal fire bar after that buff either as it wastes a skill slot and loldshot/diversion. Nobody in hell would run an earth ele outside of base vodball anyway, so yes it is a nerf for everything else. Its fine as it is, not op like it used to be. Yeah, the faint change requires the user to have skill but its a useless, useless change. Why run curses at all when you're active shutdown? Alot of bars are better for that. Curses abuses long durations; with short durations the whole tree would be useless. Practically nobody abuses more than 1 para now anyway, cept Euro's dual para with incoming build, which was built entirely do counter a meta which is gone now. AoD sins can't do that, as they do hardly any damage compared to meta sinsplit sins who btw, can also do it without any fear to their lives as very few builds are as splittable as they used to be. Rawrawr Dinosaur 14:25, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Stop being euro, Rawr. Also, use the manlier pink. -- Armond Warblade 19:05, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I lost the manlier pink. —The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Rawr. 00:17, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

and srsly, if i would want to waste 2 skills on a 4 sec shutdown for me and enemy, i would have gone deaths charge and blackout. oops! i can't now can i? because ill lose 1/4 of health everytime i try it <.<Oni 16:47, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Oni, my first character was a sin. He's still my main character. However, shadowsteps are broken. AoD is highly imba, it needs a penalty. I may not agree with that large of a sacrifice, but I still think it'd be a good idea to give them some kind of penalty. Though I'd personally like 20% sacrifice. I'm not sure if the cancel on AoD acts as a shadowstep though... it might be another kind of effect. Next: SF is broken in gimmicks. That is a fact. 6 eles hitting a single person generally kills them unless they have some kind of protection. Not to mention it's AoE (aka bad problem in HA maps, where this is most common). Oh, we forgot about the burning, which adds 14 damage/second. This idea scares me (ranged, unconditional deep wound is frightening), but it'd be interesting. Perhaps if target foe is burning, it applies deep wound (to Nuklear). Ranged KDs help stop stallway.

@ Rawr- Faintheartedness is retarded. Long lasting attack speed debuff = melee are screwed. It's extremely passive, and we're trying to eliminate passive play. The flare buff is specifically for those people who haven't realized that there are better skills/for pve people who are early in the game. Paras... well, they've got issues either way... As far as the meta sins and non-splittable builds... how about we find a way to make builds splittable again? Like trying to move combat around the map, instead of making it stay at the flagstand? Admittedly, I wish there was still a good AoD sin skill only combo, but the ability to move like they can is pretty imba. --Kalas Silvern 20:57, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

It's fucking fun to play, though. -- Armond Warblade 21:20, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Okay, rawr - 4 seconds is nothing. If anything, it makes it more variable. you can go with concentration, you can go with say, sacrifice, essence... It doesn't really matter if it locks your secondary or not - ele secondary is pretty win as it is, with all that jazz. You also seem to be forgetting that WoD is powerful - and I mean powerful. You can easily kill with it. In fact, in TA, the use of WoD generally means death for someone. The effect is powerful enough to justify 4 second cast. Hell, I know I'd run it with a 4 sec cast. As for Faint, I don't know about you, but I get pretty annoyed when a single necro can rape my frontline by pressing 123 and there is nothing short of buildwars I can do to counter it. As for Kalas - it is a really short Deepwound, and I'm quite fine it with, tbh. Though, maybe your version might be better.

My flare change is not directed at pvp. It is a bone for low level people who just want to roleplay with their ele. So yeah, it is a pve change.

So, you're saying paraway is not broken. Wow. Okay, if u say it, it must be tru!

Yeah, nobody runs an earth ele outside of a VoDball. I'm trying to fix that, did I mention? -- NUKLEAR IIV 21:28, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

A 4 second cast on WoD brings it up to 4 out of 14 seconds disabled, which is worse than diversion, a non elite and frankly much more useful skill. And I don't have to stand still getting frenzied by some wammo to use it. My point with faint wasn't that it wasn't overpowered, more you are making it the most uselss shit in the game, as 6/30 is hardly any shutdown at all and frankly not the reason you spec into curses anyway, people would still run curses bars just minus faint. Paraway is not broken, as if you haven't noticed noone runs it anymore (paraspike is too easily splitted, and in HA you shutdown caller for easy infuses). Frankly nerfing WaM to work only on earth eles will not make earth eles any more viable. It will just make wam suck. SF is not OP on any level, as the only reason to run it is SFspike which actually needs good players (strange for a spike tbh), as you run so god damn little defence, as you have 6 SF eles. The problem with sins is not the shadowsteps as such (although they help a shitload in initial split), but more the fact that if you jump 2 NPCs at once, at one of them will probably die with flagger at split, while with other characters the none 4 second spike nature of them means they can be held off. —The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Rawr. 00:14, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Like i said. you can just combine dcharge+blackout for a even better effect than ur WoD <.<Oni 22:54, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm working on earth changes. Little by little, you'know?

4 out of 14 is still pretty win. Keep in mind that this is totally free, and comes from a character that has no buisiness disabling shit in the first place.

6 out of 30 is not shit unless the skill is made potent. Curses on a whole level need to be reworked, the enitre attrib is composed of 1234.

SF is not OP, okay, I've said that much. Sp requires good people to play? Wow. How about manly people?

Paraway is still win.

No, the problem with shadowsteps, especially AoD, is that it is auto-win when it comes to splits. You shud try it. -- NUKLEAR IIV 00:50, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Maybe for SF you could do "Target foe and nearby foes take 135 fire damage and are set on fire for 5 seconds. If target is currently suffering from Burning, then this spell deals only half damage." It'd sort of become Rodgort's Invocation on crack while destroying its gimmicky spike capability. It'd also add some interesting synergy with Crystal Wave. Krelus Derian 15:57, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

IMO, make the WaM change to 50% fail under 11 earth magic. Most of the non-ele builds that used to carry it could swing 10 EM, but eleven breaks the 12/10/8 split, and non-earth eles can still manage that 11 with minor runes. I'm not too hot on your SF change, AoE DW seems pretty open to exploitation, even if I can't come up with any explicit ways. I had the same feeling about critscythes and Wounding Strike. The Aura of Restoration change rewards dual-attribute eles, and considering that the only ones of those I've seen function were geomancers, I'd be wary. The Weapon spell changes seem kind of risky since the relative power level scales based on the number of people in your party, so if you balanced them in GvG, they'd be overpowered in small-party areas like TA (important consideration) and underpowered in large-party areas like CMs and The Deep (much less important consideration). Your Paragon change seems pretty heavy-handed. It'd work, but there are more subtle suggestions that have been made, and honestly, given the current (relative) rarity of para stacking abuse, I'd rather they were undernerfed rather than overnerfed. The problem with PvE is the devs were working with a pretty limited system, so instead of doing interesting shit like WoW's raid boss battles, they had to go with LOL BIG NUMBERS, and I'd be cautious about tweaking anything until something is done about that. But yeah, SY! needs a serious knock. --76.25.197.215 01:51, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

The numbers on WAM can be easily adjusted, I'm not worried about that.

There is another, unwritten reason why I love the paragon change: It gives the devs a lot more leeway when balancing paragon skills. Think, Incoming, Song of resto, many of these just become open to buffing without breaking. I still think paraway is viable, and I'm not going to allow it to surface again.

I love geo. I also love dual elements. I don't love degenerate builds. I like self heals, they r gud for splits. I like the AoR change.

I also feel like I don't like the weapon spells thing, I just pulled that out of my orifice.

Thanks for sane comments, m8. -- NUKLEAR IIV 01:57, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

The reasoning for the para change, is in my opinion, great. Wasn't another part of the problem chaining things like Anthem of Defense (may have wrong name). Dual elements would be nice... I get bored being single element :). Interesting idea Nuklear- Iron Mist. Earth that only allows air damage- make it allow air and a % of earth damage? Could be very interesting in promoting dual element, though possibly OP as long as air is the ele meta. Weapon spells... well, they're going to be a problem. Self heals are nice, and splits are awesome, so good reasoning there. I almost want to say shorten the duration on Shadow of haste to 7-8 seconds, recharge 1 second shorter, and see what happens- it gives you no range, but lets you move around well in that small range. I know it was OP back when it was maintainable, but was that due to the escape nature or length allowing you to travel huge distances? Just another random idea. --Kalas Silvern 03:12, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New changes

Should probably move a few paragraphs from up above down here, but meh. Holy crap, dude, that's a lot of text, and I'm busy f5 stalking Izzy's talk while attempting to not dive into the kitchen and steal the bacon. (IT SMELLS REALLY FUCKING GOOD.) I read later, kk? -- Armond Warblade 03:18, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

mebbe I'll make a TL;DR section for every suggestion. -- NUKLEAR IIV 11:58, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

i love that change for SF its hawt I would however change the sac on shadowsteps cuz thats like hey we cant use it in The gutter anymore (many nubz will complain) So maybey 200 health when you shadowstep with aod gain and when you flash back 200 loss ?.This way in gvg flashing back will have to be done on time (if you dont youre dead) and with the other shadowsteps weakness can kill it imo.

I rly love most of the buff/nerfs however i would change the cap to 3 paragons and just 3 players of the same profession in ANY team ! Imo if youre running more then 3 guys of the same profession (w/e prof it is) its a gimmick and as you wanna rid them this can be the solution ? Lilondra 13:28, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I love four warrior frontlines, did I mention?

I don't like a cap of "only 3 of the same professions". It just feels so artificial. -- NUKLEAR IIV 14:12, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

meh i love 3 war frontlines but think 4 is kinda an overkill. And isnt 1 paragon in a party artificial ? Also ppl will complain because some paragons are limited and other profs arent (blablabla w/e). But dont you think they will exploit that SF even more ? Spammable DW is wrong even if the duration is short (if i remember correctly you didnt say anything abour recharge if you did sry).And they will just find a way to get a DW on all of them at same time (with a dshot on youre rc or a hum on youre rc or ANYTHING THAT KILLS YOURE RC thats quite auch).Lilondra 18:56, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

To anonymous person above, please sign, it's nice. Lilondra, valid point on SF. It's already been brought up. The 3 cap is inelegant... there are better ways to do it, like, I don't know... making proffessions useful/alternates instead of making a number of them inferior? Sounds like that's what's being attempted here. And 3 of a prof =/= gimmick. A single person (Shockwave spiker of any kind, assacaster) can be a gimmick. Honestly, the best thing to do would be buff classes so that they each have a role to play, with no one class completely (note: completely) filling another's role. --Kalas Silvern 02:59, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I said more then 3 not 3 as 3 war front (or for the nubz 3 derv front) is kinda popular now :/.I know what you mean however Lilondra 08:33, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I misread. It's still a good point as an example. Would you agree that alternates- as in, still effective, but different, would be a good idea? That's going to be my focus whenever it is that I get around to making the assassin only (and stuff related to them) balance page to somewhat compliment this. --Kalas Silvern 21:52, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I dont rly get what you mean but if you mean change skills completely to get a totally different effect (but balanced) yes i agree thats necesarry ;) Lilondra 06:15, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Meh nuke say something cuz this nolife wants to do something in the vacation you know :p Lilondra 20:28, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] No. =D

Your nerf-all method of thinking sucks. Fail^5. Phill Gaston 20:46, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

lrn 2 play if you say this update fails you have no idea whatsoever about how the game works.Lilondra 06:23, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

you need to lrn2ignore baed trolls. -- NUKLEAR IIV 14:54, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Ow yh and youre the guy that should say such things :p ? Common dude seriously XD.Anyway I do think izzy nerfs to much (wel nukes to much instead of using a hammer he uses a bomb (pretty much youre previous sig :p) but this update is good.Lilondra 19:27, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] SF

I mean why teh fawk nerfbat this already nerfabattered skill? SF spike is farly weak and as any nerfbattered but wroking teambuilds need some extent of skill and organazation to win with, sway that you have put it in line with is dumb button mashing. Damage of SF isnt high it is mostly used in degen teams to apply pressure and if their doesnt suck balls baed and spread out its not thaet deadley, so wtf nerf the poor sf into onlivio of total disuse?! :P --Super IgorImage:User Super Igor sig2.jpg 14:03, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh ya and aoe dw is fuck worse than 100 fire damage that is effected by shields ward and fuck load of stuff. --Super IgorImage:User Super Igor sig2.jpg 14:04, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Super Igor DW is the strongest condition in the game.Spreading it is OP thats why we all complain about WS.This isnt exactly a nerf its a change.The skill remains very very powerfull.Lilondra 14:46, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Thats what Im about please dont give us another WS please spreading aoe dw with a skill that rechrges in 2 seconds is insane just keep it like it is now, not the most overpowered thing ingame. --Super IgorImage:User Super Igor sig2.jpg 16:01, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

"Oh ya and aoe dw is fuck worse than 100 fire damage that is effected by shields ward and fuck load of stuff." it is much better and it doesnt stack.This is powerfull but not rly that OP.Lilondra 19:49, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Lilondra, you suck hard at sarcasm. —The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Rawr. 22:29, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

On another note, why do you want to nerf escape? It isn't escape that makes shitway good, as you just kill the backline anyway with rangers last (Although i suppose you might wanna kill frontline first if your monks are pretty baed), it takes like 1 min 45 to beat. —The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Rawr. 22:29, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

I like the gale thing tho, but i'd still spec 8 air for gale wammo :> —The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Rawr. 22:36, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

No need to nerf shitway, irnically it slowly gets out of used as opposed to various ranger spikes, also, farewell shadow form. :'( --Super IgorImage:User Super Igor sig2.jpg 22:37, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah noone even runs shitway anymore as they realised its bad already, and they also realised only bad people run rspike so just dl'd vent to run that. 32321321321321321321 —The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Rawr. 22:43, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

One team eated another team rawr, thats how I see it, I wont call ranger spike bad, it still needs more organization to run and counting down spikes is fine but it is still arguably the most powerful spike ingame, so much defense... --Super IgorImage:User Super Igor sig2.jpg 22:48, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

lol, rspike is lame shit, 321 spikes takes no skill at all, neither does 3 monks, vitals and a paragon. Why else do you think rspike tigers are lol'd at as much/more than bspike tigers —The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Rawr. 22:51, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Well yea youve got a point here, 3 monks, rit with vital, a para and three hard to kill spikers...but as far as i see anet constantly fails to kill the damn thing as opposet to blood spike that is non existant atm, no? how do you call a spike otherwise btw? without counting down that is --Super IgorImage:User Super Igor sig2.jpg 22:55, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

You can't, thats the point, all spikes are skilless. There is nothing wrong with calling a spike against a team that's not breaking to your pressure when running balanced to force kills, but running full spike builds is lame and for bad people. —The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Rawr. 22:57, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

^^ No 22:58, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Err, have to agree with rawr actually. :o lol yeah epic event --Super IgorImage:User Super Igor sig2.jpg 22:59, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

then why do you oppose this change ? it prevents spikenoobs and can be run in a balanced Lilondra 06:40, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Yayayay plx noobs heer. Igor, stop being baed. Rawr, the change to escape is a buff that nerfs shitway. It's good becuz of teh synergizedes. -- NUKLEAR IIV 19:48, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Cuz SF spike is not ranger spike, SF already been nerfed hudreads of times and countered by shitloads of common stuff so SF is moar often used to apply pressure which is imo less dumb than 321 spikes. --Super Igor 19:52, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh right ranger spike hasnt been nerfed at all ? lol thats new to m.SF is still way to powerfull it supports gimmicky play and in certain situation is (on the edge of) overpowered.Applying pressure can also be done in other more balanced ways and applying pressure with 12121212123121212126121212121271212121281212121212121231212121212121212MB 1212121281212121212121271212121212 is NOT good either.Shitloads of common stuff ? so spamming SB is gud for youre energy i herd ? Ow wait youre right interrupting is rly the key cause there is absolutely nothing as good as interrupting 5 sf's at a time with a very low recharge and cost of CoF.Besides why would anyone run more then 1 SF.Everyone cares about balance instead of winning AMIRITE ? Lilondra 19:57, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Are you spamming sb???...omg. --Super Igor 20:00, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Ok ill help you understand my incredibly difficult comment. *open sarcasm* *open quote* blablablablabla * end sarcasm* *end quote*. Got it ? Lilondra 20:15, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Why are you so fed up? calm down already. --Super Igor 20:25, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

nd readpls. I'm quite calm i'm not the one spamming hehe spamming spirit bond on recharge XD.phail less pls Lilondra 20:29, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

You said that you spam sb, stop and dont get all pissy. --Super Igor 20:31, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

"so spamming SB is gud for youre energy i heard" when ppl say i herd they mostly are sarcastic.Gud is also often used in a sarcastic sence.So i was making fun of you and saying it is not the option and you should not spam it.However i command you to go back into youre cave my troll so some stupid SF farmer can loot youre ass.Ow yh like nuke said ignore baed trolls ignore baed trolls ignore baed trolls Lilondra 20:36, 5 July 2008 (UTC )

^wall of text. --Super Igor 20:39, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

INTARNETS DRAMA MAGNET --Metroid 20:41, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

FLAMUNG METROOD! --Super Igor 20:46, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

GTFO if you ain't gonna say anything sane. -- NUKLEAR IIV 10:20, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

I did, lrn to rd or I throw an admin at ya!!! D:< --Super Igor 10:26, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

SF is not nerf battered enough. So what if you cut off 10 points of damage and 1 second of burning - shit still dies with 100 AoE nuke with a 2 second reload. -- NUKLEAR IIV 10:37, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

no. SF is nerfed enough, SF spikes are rather weak and it is more often used for degen and stuff and easily countered by shitloads of stuff so leave the poor spell alone. --Super Igor 12:39, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

While SF is still vicious, you seem to be missing the point of the change. Go and read the bit about "promoting mindless play". -- NUKLEAR IIV 12:49, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Anything promotes a mindless play, imo SF does it the least, a pressure build that uses SF for degen imo is les dumb than SF spike which is almost absolete and yeasy to counter. --Super Igor 15:07, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Igor stop phailing this much pressure requires more skill then spike ;).(unless you run shitway or something but w/e).Its better off as both a pressure and spike skill (spamming DW is pressure).But without the stacking thus now it cannot be used in 5 man sf spike's.And i already said it isnt that easy to counter the only thing you can do is try to outpressure them so you can kill there spike.In gvg ganking is most of the time youre best option.Lilondra 17:25, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Yea lilondra stop phailing presssure requres more skill than spikes and SF is used for pressure and minor spike assist to force kill in a pressure based team this why it shouldnt get nerfed even moar also SF is countered by shitloads of stuff plz dont be bad and use +armor vs. fire for starters not -5/20% PvE stuff. :P --Super Igor 17:29, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Igor you phail +10 armor wont save you ;) and tell me all those counters ? CoF cuz that has a recharge that matches the one of SF right ? the update is good idiot not baed like you .Lilondra 17:31, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Hahahaha, sure that -5/20% would save you from anything Lil...err...no it wont. Back to counters; ward against harm, +10 armor vs fire, cof, basically any mesmer interrupt like pd, d-shot as SF is easy to interrupt if you arent bad, pressure! ur 60AL squishies, energy denial, ench stripment, spirit bond, prot spirit, rof and many more so plz dont be baed and sto violating NPA becuz of it, strip sum of their ettunements and here you go the cant pressure, their damage is low, and you also interrupt their spike. SF is not iba, stop being baed. :P --Super Igor 17:39, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Stop inventing things to hide youre noobyness.Ward against harm is an elite.Besides if you would need to take a counter to 1 or 2 specific things with you that skill is imbalanced.Enchantment stripping has better uses like when YOU want to spike.Interrupts can be avoided and gl interrupting 5 guys at once with the recharge of cof and the recharge of SF.Even if SF spike wasnt imba (it sometimes is sometimes isnt) it shouldnt exist.It does not reward skill only people like you.Youre also breaking NPA with that comment and btw 500 damage MINIMUM every 2 second is not called low.Thats like saying splinter weapon is worthless.If you have anything decent to say pls tell me because i dont think you can spirit bond in aoe without screwing youre energy.Lilondra 19:48, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Stop being bad, Igor. SF is not imba, sure, I can agree there. But if you think it requires skill to play, then GTFO. -- nüklaer | VII | Selfless self promotion 20:18, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Nuclear youre new sig phails (seriously it does).On the other hand it can be overpowered in some situations and since when does 5 man sf have a requirement of skill ? NEver said that because It never has and it never will.I think SF CAN be OP in some situations but you can overcome it by running a decent balanced i agree ..Lilondra 05:56, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Ya nuklear right SF is not imba, no need to nerf it stop neing baed urself plz. :] --Super Igor 00:22, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

No, shut up. Just because it's not imba doesn't mean it's not broken and/or nerf-worthy. -- Armond Warblade 02:00, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

broken is imba and no its not nerf-worthy Armond. --Super Igor 18:29, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

I love how the igor vs nuklear flame war was enhanced by the colors of their signatures. It made me smile. ~Shard (talk) 19:25, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

It was mostly igor vs lilondra, a battle of epic proportions. Like any good nuke, I just.. watched. -- nüklaer | VII | selfless self promotion 19:29, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

On the note of balance...why do you want to give eles DW? Ranged DW is bad for the game. Lilondra has a good SF fix, minus the 12 energy gain. It just needs to be worked so that you can't spike with it. ~Shard (talk) 19:34, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Thats what Im about, Nuk's SF nerf is outter failure, lol, eles have aoe dw now, besides let me say it again, dont confuse teh Izzys, SF is not overpowered, it was nerfed to hell and is mostly a meh pressure skill not spike so yea, if you nerf it nerf the damage buff theburning duration make it a pressure skill but thats not needed anyway, any team that doesnt suck will survive SF spike no problem as shitloads of stuff counter it. --Super Igor 14:18, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Look, I'm just going to say this once, and then tell you to get the fuck out. The Searing Flames change is not a nerf. It's a change to the mechanic, because the current mechanic promotes gimmicky play. Capeesh? If you have a problem understanding that, then go away pls. -- NUKLEAR IIV 14:29, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

You cant tell people to leave your talk page especially if you just cannot cope with being wrong. Also, AoE deep wound for eles is just a very dumb idea. --Super Igor 15:26, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me, when was SF nerfed to hell? I remember it getting nerfed to hell, then 99% of that nerf got reverted and it's broken again.

Also, nerfed != balanced. Try to get that through your head. ~Shard 17:21, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] YOU SIR

Must give youre comment about my vision on balance without a troll here Lilondra 06:26, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

btw shard doesnt want to give the simulator so scare him youre good at it hell do what you say Lilondra 19:30, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

It's not that I don't want to. I would if I could. I can't just email people a folder of code and dll files. ~Shard (talk) 19:36, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Shadowsteps

Just make them cause exhaustion in my opinion. Assassins don't have a huge energy pool so it would perhaps make them reconsider spamming attack chains with their reduction in energy. Or you could have a giant sound effect every time someone teleports to you? Perhaps an extra 30s recharge if you jump a foe who isn't attacking? --Chieftain Alex 11:50, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

With the recharges on shadow steps, I don't see exhaustion being delibrating enough. Only if you have, say, two steps on your bar like AoD, but even with that, waiting exhaustion out should be no deal. --