User talk:The Sins We Die By/Top Priority Skills/Archive

Mind blast isn't that overpowered. It's just a joke when combined with the other 50 ways eles can gain energy.

Warrior's Endurance is fine as a stance.

Ether Prism is fine.

Diversion and shame are fine.

How would not changing what Searing Flames does fix it? It's not overpowered because it does 110 damage instead of 90, it's overpowered because it has no recharge.

Palm Strike: Same thing as SF.

PnH...Umm...what? Again, you don't balance skills by changing random numbers, you balance skills by changing what is making them problems. For PnH, the "Remove everything" and "I'm in God Mode" are the problems. For skills like this where every aspect of them is broken, they need a complete rework. On a side note about PnH, buffing defensive skills to godly levels to counter godly offensive skills is the opposite of what anet should be doing. ~Shard 22:20, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Mindblast can be used without attunements to maintain Fire Spam builds for far too long. If it's changed what I am posting it + AoR is basically the same thing as Caretakers + Kaolai.

Warrior's Endurance is good as a stance, but it's not really viable. This way it becomes energy intensive for a warrior facing melee hate, kiting, blind etc. The reduce in return ensures if players want to use power attack protector's and bull's strikes, and frenzy they will have to worry about their energy.

Ether Prism is not fine imo bcs it makes achieving restoration conditionals far too easy. With all that excess energy to burn spirits, weapon spells, and ashes can be used without any risk of being energy intensive. Plus immunity to spikes every 15 seconds is just plain overpowered, not so obvious in this pressure meta.

Diversion and Shame are not fine bcs of hex stacking. They are like ranged 1 way blackouts(perfectly balanced skill btw). The entire domination line is like a giant 1 way blackout in fact. It's a relatively minor nerf anyways at high ranks. This just makes mesmers have time the skills slightly more efficiently, ooohh more thinking darn...

The burning duration change makes SF only trigger every other SF cast. So instead of in 3 casts getting burning, 94 dmg, 94 dmg, burning, 94 dmg, 94 dmg. You get burning, 84 dmg, burning, 84 dmg. SF spike teams lose out on 10dmg*6 so that's 60 less dmg minus 84 every 4 seconds. It would still be pretty good but with 144 less dmg from spamming its more managable.

For PS the 14-15 less dmg it does adds up. 3 seconds of cripple gives people a chance to run away. If it's an attack skill blocking, blind, other forms of miss and slow attack speed balance it.

PnH is a simple explanation. Immunity to pressure on cast and 2 seconds after with 8 recharge means it can only be used effectively on 1 target. With a 5 second enchant duration +1 second for an enchant mod it could be used to take pressure of multiple people. The scaling helps make the pressure minimally effective.~>Sins WDB 22:44, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

To add on quickly about PnH. I wanted to balance it more around Empathic Removal. The reasoning for this is simple, to me Empathic is a perfectly balanced skill. It removes potentially 2 conditions and 2 hexes while causing a minor heal two ways. However the only guarenteed effect from this skill is a two way minior heal. Removing 1 hex or 1 condition is extremely likely. Removing a condition two ways is fairly likely. Removing 1 hex and 1 condition is likely. However beyond this is where maximizing this skill's efficiency is very unlikely, because players will be smart enough not to waste hexes and conditions on the caster.

With my suggestion to PnH it's a similar idea. Players spread hexes and conditions around because PnH won't be able to take them off multiple players near as efficiently with only a 2 second after effect. And even if a team calls a spike on a target that 2 seconds is only going to buy a target a similar amount of time to what RC would. The difference is PnH's after effect will only be 2 seconds which won't last long enough to make it act like a second RC is cast on the target. This way it's more a fair trade off. Clear hexes, which hopefully won't be cuasing as much degen, and conditions every 8 seconds or Clear Conditions with major healing from RC and have another hex removal (both would buy time during a spike).~>Sins WDB 23:28, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Oh yeah! My value changes aren't random foo!~>Sins WDB 23:33, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

If diversion and shame are problems because hexway is a problem, what's the obvious solution? Nerf hexway. I play every build and I can tell you that shame and diversion are not overpowered in or against any of them.

3 seconds of cripple gives people a chance to run away? Does palm strike have a 3 second aftercast? Last I checked, if the cripple doesn't come off within 1 second, you get knocked down twice in a row, crippled again, knocked down twice in a row, crippled again...Sin skills all need bigger recharges. The point of having chains is that your build will only succeed if they all go through. If you miss one, you're supposed to be severely disadvanatged. Instead, in Build Wars, if your chain fails, you just do it again in 3 seconds.

I'm not gonna talk about PnH anymore. It was a stupid change and any attempt to keep it at its current function is equally bad.

I ran Endurance as a stance and loved it. The 200+ damage attack skills every 3 seconds was worth not having a speed boost, but when you have both, it becomes ridiculous. ~Shard 05:10, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

I see your point about Palm Strike. I still prefer it to be simply changed to an attack skill. Perhaps a more elegant solution if its not changed to one would be this "If used after a dual attack this skill is disabled for 10 seconds." That would be very effective in preventing mindlessness bcs then for 14 seconds their chain is completely dead. Obviously they would be able to target swap after a chain, which isn't a big issue bcs PS bars are touch range.~>Sins WDB 05:45, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Diversion and shame just irk me. I hate getting veil ripped and standing there useless unless I swap to a low e set and sac as minimal energy as possible or kill one of my less important skills for almost a full minute. 40/40 sets make those two skills in conjunction too effective. A lucky 1/2 or 1/4 activation bonus diversion with fast casting can easily result in the loss of the opposition depending on what skills are killed. Not to mention shame nets a mesmer energy while stealing energy from an opposing team, that's a 26 energy swap. The trigger effects are just too powerful as is. Tell me 53 seconds added on to a recharge isn't overpowered when 8-20 seconds later (depending on the situation) a decent mesmer will have another skill killed for 53 seconds. It doesn't have to just be on healers obviously.~>Sins WDB 06:01, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

I disagree with all these changes for reasons Shard mostly mentioned, I think the only thing I could slightly agree with is Mind Blast, and even then it isn't an issue, and the larger issue with Mind Blast is that it makes skills like Distortion ridiculous, but the problem there is that Distortion is a stupid idea for a skill and needs a functionality change. Shame + Diversion are fine, they're supposed to create difficult situations for the enemy team, if they aren't able to do that, they aren't good. They make the enemy backline think, and that type of thing is good. DarkNecrid 06:03, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Just the discussed above or all the ones on my page? Because I think a lot of the hex abuse is warranted. Also my suggestions are to make skills viable in their current functionality as much as possible, so that would be why you don't see me on board with Edurance or PnH (PS being the exception). Why don't you agree with ether prism may I inquire?

Btw I don't agree that distortion is the problem, normally that skill would be balanced and it was around before mindblast ever was.~>Sins WDB 06:23, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

I have a minor correction regarding the proposed change to Visions of Regret. It probably wouldn't need a new mechanic, a few other skills such as Song of Purification and Splinter Weapon already end after all their charges have been expended, so it should be fairly easy to code charges onto a hex. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 06:56, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't consider Distortion balanced prior to Mind Blast, it was a useless stance nerfed super hard where the only time it becomes useful is through large energy gain that can mitigate its energy loss. It was nerfed into uselessness for a good reason though, being able to upkeep a perma 75% block is imbalanced as hell. While Mind Blast helps you maintain Distortion, Mind Blast is a relatively balanced skill. You sacrifice raw damage output (its Flare damage) for the ability to output bigger damage over time + more utility skills. I think that makes it relatively balanced and interesting to say the least. Where it becomes dumb is when you couple it with Aura of Restoration, Fire Attunement and so on. Then combined with Distortion you can mash 1235 and win battles. Solving the problem with Mind Blast is better done by making Distortion actually able to be balanced by giving it a new functionality, and lower the other insane non-elite energy gain Elementalists can get because that is off the charts right now. But I think MB itself is fine, Elementalists have always had good energy management elite skills, but through buffs to GOLE, the Glowing skills, AoR, and so on, it's just kinda dumb right now.

As for the skills besides Mind Blast, a lot of the hexway skills are only dumb in 4v4, and even then they aren't that much of a problem unless you don't have a Monk (RA), which oh well. The only skills in that section that are even a problem in team play is Lingering Curse and Visions of Regret honestly, and VoR is just dumb because of what its mechanic actually is (penalizes you for using the thing this game is based on, genius), however I think it would be okay if you just reduced the damage to be more pressure instead of taking huge chunks off. As for LC, keeping the degen where it is now but reducing the healing reduction to a scale of 0...15% seems more fair. A weakened deep Wound effect is still potent, but it is quite stupid to have an AoE full power deep wound effect in Hex form.

Ether Prism is relatively fine and I do not think your reasoning is fair. Weapon spells and so on are already able to be used without being reasonable energy intensive, energy denial is awful right now and about the only way you could manage to pull off an efficient energy denial is if you waste half your team on it, which didn't use to be the case. While Ether Prism's energy gain helps, it's really just Mantra of Resolve but unstrippable and slightly better energy gain over time. The damage immunity isn't much of a problem either, and isn't the reason Ether Prism is taken, it's really just icing on the cake. Giving Elementalists a strong energy management skill isn't a bad thing, ((Ether Prodigy), it is when they become truly unlimited energy that makes you impossible to be downed that they become bad things (pre-nerf Ether Renewal, the current energy situation with MB and all the enchantments). If you're going to do any nerfs, making it an Enchantment spell would be about the only reasonable thing I could see for it. That's my take. DarkNecrid 07:11, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Oh yeah, and I agree with Barbed Spear, too. But still, stuff like Foul Feast should simply lose the Health gain so that it isn't a better Draw Conditions, I think Magebane's energy bonus is silly (energy is already a non-issue for Rangers, 2 energy isn't much of a boon here), WE needs to be put back into a stance, and the rest are w/e. If hex removal skills were buffed to match hexes, they wouldn't be an issue. Skills like Peace and Harmony wouldn't be needed if hex removal actually did something. DarkNecrid 07:16, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Some comments on your proposed skill changes:

Mind Blast: Yes, it can be used to get energy - like a lot of elementalist elite skills. But it's damage is even less than Flare! So I don't see any reason to change that skill.

Searing Flames: It does AoE damage in a nearby area ... if you see your opponent using this skill, spread out. Yes, this requires thinking.

Diversion: If you watch high-end GvG you'll notive a funny thing about Diversions - most of them get interrupted.

Ether Prism: Waste your elite skill slot for 3 seconds of immunity to damage every 15 seconds to gain less energy than you could save with Glyph of Lesser Energy. It doesn't protect from life stealing/vampiric weapons, does it? It's not an enchantment or stance, so it cannot be extended, either. Why nerf it?

Peace and Harmony: As far as I understood it this skill was turned from rather useles to its current mechanic to give a utility against the thing you complain about most: hexway. Though I have to agree it is a bit overpowered as it is. Another way to nerf it would be to remove the condition removal part.

Palm Strike: All it needs IMHO is a longer recharge.

Visions of Regret: It's AoE range is adjacent ... all it needs is a bit of position play, not nerfing.

Shame/Backfire/Empathy/Wastrel's Worry: Those skills have been around for so long and suddenly they are a problem? Besides, those four alone already take up half a skill bar. And (with the exception of WW) their casting times make them susceptible for interrupt even on a primary mesmer. Xelonir 07:51, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Mind Blast is not Flare however. Mind Blast is not a projectile + Immolate and Mind Blast spam > Flare Spam. 1) Playing any profession should not be about infinitely spamming skill(s) 1, or 12, or 123 etc which is what has happened to the elementalist. 2) Ranged dps should not be on par with melee dps bcs that breaks the whole balance of things, turret rangers much?

Ether Renewal still doesn't fly with me. It was compared to GoLE which can POTENTIALLY save an ele 30 energy in 30 seconds, but it normally doesn't do that. It's more like a net savings of 15-20 bcs of what skills and itself cost. Prism GAINS a NET 28 energy in 30 seconds with 6 seconds of damage immunity. It's also an unstoppable skill with instant cast. Making it an enchant with a 1 second cast does seem like a decent idea though.

Diversion's effect still seems too powerful regardless of the fact that it can be interrupted, it becomes even better during splits.

Domination Magic is not suddenly a problem it always has been. Backfire and now VoR with cover hexes is a problem. Whether that is due to the fact that hex stacking is too powerful, which it obviously is atm, or hex removal is just too weak remains to truly be determined for the long haul.

I do think if hex removal was more viable though hexes wouldn't be an issue. By the way Empathy was me just being nit picky. Aside on the Magebane suggestion, D-Shot and Magebane just wouldn't compare if they were both 10 rechage yet the elite did 10 recharge to SPELLS only and was 5 more energy. Figured the 2 energy return was a nice way to make it appealing without being too good.~>Sins WDB 16:46, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it remains to be determined for the long haul, it's been known for a while that hex removal is too weak in comparison to hexes. I also disagree COMPLETELY that Mind Blast compares to melee DPS in any way. Mind Blast in itself doesn't come close to melee DPS, and the stuff you have to cast has a) activation times that are slower than any melee weapon and can be interrupted by strong anti-magic rupts and b) have long recharge times. While you may be able to put out numbers close to melee DPS (it won't ever be actual melee DPS, Deep Wound and all that), the elementalist is investing more resources, more time, and ultimately more risk in doing so. Searing Flames I can agree too, but Mind Blast? The biggest damage skill they usually take is Rodgort's which takes 2 seconds to do what a Warrior can do in half a second and your Mesmer can pretty much destroy it. DarkNecrid 23:31, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Diversion's effect is powerful, but powerful doesn't necessarily mean a bad thing. It's okay for a skill to be strong so long as it can be beat by skill and thinking, Bull's Strike is one of the strongest Warrior skills, yet it can be beat by a simple reaction to stop moving. Diversion can beat by waiting it out, having another person remove it if they have Hex removal, having your midline interrupt it, or if you have to, blowing a skill you won't need for awhile (or using an instant recharge one like Inspired Hex). It is a strong skill that gets beat by strong play + thinking, that's a good skill. Diversion isn't mindless, sure you can spam it but it's not going to do you as good as well timed ones. DarkNecrid 23:38, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Good points on several topics and I just have to say perhaps its just our difference in viewing the game. Honestly, however, I can't see your defense of mind blast still. 1) It promotes infinite skill spamming, I just don't think that spam builds like this [[1]] should be as effective as one where you have to coordinate damage, snares, blind, etc. Mind Blast + Immolate alone is 128 dmg + 42 burning damage at least every 3.33 seconds, a 40/40 set improves the raw damage (not the burning) by ~ 36%. That's 46 more damage so our total is 216 average every 3.33 seconds. I don't buy the point that eles put themselves at risk more by being eles either. Not with AoR, even without distortion. Not to mention warriors use Frenzy and take double damage so as far as I'm concerned ele's and warriors are on a level playing field in terms of self risk for offensive reward. It just blows my mind (ironic) that infinite spamming and passive gameplay are so effective they have worked their way into the top of the meta, shame on ANet.

I agree that Mind Blast needs to be changed, however, it is not overpowered enough to be on the high priority of the "to balance" list. There are ,many other things that need to be dealt with first. ~Shard 04:51, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Immolate should prolly get its damage reverted back to what it was imo, but either way that damage isn't close to what a Warrior can do, and it is susceptible to interrupts a lot more than a Warrior is. Elementalists put themselves at risk more because spellcaster counters are stronger than physical counters. The ones that aren't as strong generally have reduces drawbacks or in the case of Power Return actually helps the person. Frenzy isn't an apt reason that they don't put themselves at risk - any decent Warrior is going to cancel that to the point where it doesn't become a risk at all. The MB ele is strong (op even) because of Distortion and stuff, but it is still very very fragile. One Power Block or one humsig and the bar is already hurting a lot. Mind Blast in of itself isn't really the problem here, it's skills like Distortion that are poorly designed and the insane outside energy gain they get that compliments Mind Blast a little too well. Nuking in of itself will never be as good as melee damage, the only thing that beats it really is Searing Flames if you hit tons of people, and MB Dist is no exception. It doesn't do as good as damage as melee ever will, but it has the advantage of being really durable cause of Distortion and is able to keep going because of the energy they gain from other skills. Again, Mind Blast may be spammable, but it can pave the way for good stuff, like Blinding Flash, Gale, and so on, and being an elite with good energy gain fits the Elementalist motif like their other Elites that give energy. But when combined with outside factors, it becomes a little too much, and killing Mind Blast just side steps other more important problems with that bar. I agree Mind Blast needs a nerf, but only a slight one, with your version you're basically just getting free weaker elite flare with a longer recharge (unless you take all the crazy e-management skills to get some energy back), which really takes away from the skill tbh. DarkNecrid 04:54, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

I was thinking MB+AoR is similar to Ashes+Caretakers, except that MB+AoR nets more healing+more energy bcs of AoR's effect per spell and the recharge would still be 1 second faster.~>Sins WDB 05:45, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Shard the scythe is an easy fix. Make the pvp version of the cancel skills not cancel anymore. This forces dervishes to go to a warrior secondary and use protector's strike for a cancel. Then they can't run conjure and their utility is limited to those two professions. That's not to say that all problems are fixed then and there, we still have Wounding Strike as a major issue, but it's a start.~>Sins WDB 05:51, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Diversion/Shame

I disagree that these skills are over powered. I consider them to be very balanced. A good monk can deal with both or a good mesmer can turn the tide of battle with them. Its all in the coordination. Its the other hexes and the lack of comparable removal that hurt so much. VoR and many Necro hexes in particular.--*Yasmin Parvaneh* 23:19, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

I can see the light on a couple things. However, I will not accept the shutdown potential of diversion.~>Sins WDB 01:27, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Still don't see why you think Diversion is broken dude. To date you are the 2nd person I've seen to say it is overpowered, the 1st guy was a random bad dude from RA. Scaling the duration is an ok choice I guess, you can make it a strong low duration more active hex (than it already is) which is good for the game sure, but it's already strong given its effect. The key word in your sentence is "potential". Potentially a lot of skills could be broken, and at its height Diversion could provide a very strong lock down effect, but if that ever happens, it means one of two things is true:

a) Your team sucks.

or

b) Your team sucks.

Diversion has many counters as is, yes I know this doesn't make automatically make it balanced, but Diversion is a low duration, high power hex that rewards skilled play both from the caster and the enemy team. If your midline isn't shutting down Diversion, then you have Hex removal on another character, if for god knows why you can't remove it with Hex removal, most bars have 1-2 skills they can "blow", or you can simply wait it out and let your team know to back off a bit. In this sense, Diversions counter is skilled communication and teamwork, something you should be trying to promote and something that is barely alive in this game as is now. In modes where communication is difficult (RA being the only real one here), it might be a little bit strong which is where a Hex duration scale can be handy, but it's only strong in RA because there is little communication and you don't have a guaranteed midline/hex removal. But then again, it's RA, so balance shouldn't be dictated around it at all. In organized formats, Diversion is not a problem at all, being one of the few balanced Hexs in the game imo. DarkNecrid 21:22, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Diversion is a low duration. Its duration is 6 seconds, that's not a low duration on a caster specifically a monk. Non-casters can at least auto attack for damage so boohoo for the duration to them.

high power hex that rewards skilled play both from the caster and the enemy team. It rewards minimal timing at its bare minimum, using skill at its bare minimum. high power hex that rewards skilled play if that much effectiveness is rewarded for a little timing Infuse Health should not sac half health if your target has under 150 health.

If your midline isn't shutting down Diversion. A hex that MUST be interrupted tells you it is OP.

you have Hex removal on another character. That doesn't help when they land lucky HCT or even QCT. It also doesn't help that cover hexes are casted faster than hex removal. PnH doesn't count because it needs nerfed.

most bars have 1-2 skills they can "blow", or you can simply wait it out and let your team know to back off a bit. In this sense, Diversions counter is skilled communication and teamwork, something you should be trying to promote and something that is barely alive in this game as is now.. A fairly valid point this is the only reason just the recharge penalty should be played with. The reason this doesn't save your argument is because for one it recharges in 12 seconds and two a few classes rely heavily on low recharge skills, WoH and RC for example. If a one of those go your entire backline just became 30% less effective. Hence why really it needs its recharge penalty lowered by at least 10 seconds.

Compare this skill to D-Shot. D-Shot is powerful (20 second recharge penalty) but at least balanced. It requires an interrupt to get its recharge which requires anticipation and timing at least depending on the casting time of the skill. D shot is a 1/4 cast but at least there's blind, block, and obstructions which are common defenses to use. Diversion offers at least 6 seconds of shutdown with a cover hex in a PnH'less meta, or it shutdowns a skill for 50 seconds guaranteed. It's only counters are interrupts and hex removal (which doesn't work) and daze too (which doesn't work either). To make this as easy as possible for you to understand a player who is not very skilled as a mesmer or ranger decides they want to try to learn a bit of shutdown and they based their decision on d-shot and diversion which profession would they pick? The one where I have to pay attention to a players casting pattern and try to anticipate their actions then maybe get an interrupt very 11-15 seconds about or the skill where I can cast it every 6(HSR)-15 seconds and either shut someone down or make them lose a skill while I do it again. If a newby player can pick up diversion and be told don't spam this just use it when you think someone will use a skill then cast wastrel's worry and the result of that as said several times 6 seconds of shutdown or +50 second recharge on a skill it needs changed. However, that said it's not really broken it just needs toned down. I would like to see a scaling duration, but i would settle for 10 seconds off the retarded long recharges.~>Sins WDB 04:28, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

LOL

Those ought to be the worst solutions I've ever seen. Xhata 13:51, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Very well, you wanted constructive feedback so here ya go. Let's start with your comments on hexes. It's not hard to see that duration damage hexes are bad for the game because of the boringness and mindless use, so at least you nailed that. However, it makes no sense to add Diversion and Shame to this list because 1) they only trigger one time, 2) they require timing to use them well (as opposed to duration hexes, you just apply them and re-apply when they end) and 3) they have a rather long cast time for a spell that only triggers once. Yes, they are easy to use but the ammount of power the skill has increases greatly the more skilled the user is. So let's see your suggested nerfs to the duration hexes. The only kind of suggestions I'm seeing are number nerfs. Now, there is nothing wrong with these but they won't fix a truly broken skill and frankly, duration Hexes can be called that. Therefore, while your changes may cause these skills to stop being used in the metagame, this will also mean they won't see serious use at all. An example of a skill change that won't change anything: Backfire. You just decreased the damage by 20. No-one cares as long as the damage is still above 100.

Let's continue with your Elementalist changes. Again, you practically solve nothing. The only thing you did was decrease the effectiveness of these skills slightly. Mind Blast is still free energy and damage. Searing Flames is still a spell abusable by (and this is the problem of the skill) multiple persons. Ether Prism is still an awesome spike preventer with free energy gain. This kind of changes won't help at all and unless you see that there is no point in trying.

Now, Monk changes. You actually succeeded in re-introducing a problem from the past. Party heals were nerfed for a reason, they were too PASSIVE and too SKILL-LESS to be fun and fair to keep (those two things are what you absolutely don't want to happen right?). So by adding an additional 40ish heal to those skills you are doing a lot more harm than you might see. The other changes are yet again number changes which as I said before won't work. However, since we are talking about a concrete attribute called Healing Prayers, at least they take away some power creep. You have to be consistent in a thing like this to make it have an effect, though.

Next on my totally random list are Assassins. You suggest making Deadly Paradox an IAS. There however is a reason Assassins don't have IASes (except for Way of the Assassin, but that's an elite skill and only 15% increasal). It's because it forces them to take a secondairy attribute if they want to attack faster. So, by adding a skill that circumvents this, you are buffing assassins. Palm Strike is just another number nerf, again won't work but this time because the problem this skill has is the ammount of utility it has.

Your Dervish changes are mostly number changes (again -.-), so I won't say much about it. You did introduce an overpowered skill though, Onslaught. IAS and IMS in one skill has been proven to be too powerful a couple of times (think Rampage as One and Primal Rage).

Ranger and Paragon changes aren't worth mentioning. Warrior's Endurance is yet another number buff (tbh, it stays to be OP like this). Until you understand Warrior's Endurance can't ever be balanced in this form, stop trying to change it. Hex removal skill buffs are a possible and viable way of countering hexway skills. Be wary of power creep, though. Also, don't give powerful skills such as Withdraw Hexes a too low energy cost. Giving it a high energy cost promotes good play in much cases.

Overall, you seem only to use number changes which, as I said many times, won't work at all. Please try to find out why a skill is OP instead of just randomly nerfing numbers, kthx? Xhata 12:01, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

You disregard number changes, which is bad on your part. Many of the skill concepts are fine, but are OP because of the numbers. Suggestions can't always be about changing everything completely as it often results in more OP skills or skill combinations. It also can't always be about nerfing skills into nothing because then there are useless skills taking up space. I pick a middle ground in my suggestions.

My issue with mesmer hexes is that a 6 second duration is too long for shame and diversion. Honestly ineptitude, wandering eye, and clumsiness should be 6 whereas diversion and shame should be 4. They are skills that are more effective with timing after all but the duration makes them more than that. Also Diversion's trigger effect is total zomg OP, this didn't used to be a problem but now every skill teams carry have so much importance that its devastatingly effective. Would you disagree that a 4 second diverison/shame is too short when its a timed skill? You shouldn't if that's what you truly believe. Also 25 points of damage is a lot when you look at things relatively. 115/140 is 82% that means the skill does 18% less damage on triggers. When a monk MUST cast through backfire health loss would be 115/600 as opposed to 140/600 my suggestion is 19% of no dp whereas it currently does 23%. If you believe the significance of that 18% is something to be overlooked I suggest you look at a spike. A toon is ganked for 700 damage lessen that damage by 18%. You damage drops by 126 to 574. These numbers are important.

The Mindblast change effects the energy return rate. With enchants you get back 11 energy per 3 seconds, with my change you get back 8 energy per 4 seconds and cant be constantly spamming spells with out down time.

Searing Flames, as I mentioned earlier on this page, means that it only triggers every other cast as opposed to 2 times every 3 casts. My change-Burning, Damage, Burning, Damage. Currently Burning, Damage, Damage, Burning, Damage, Damage. The slight drop in damage reduces its effectiveness in SF team spikes

The cast time to ether prism means it can't be used anywhere near as effectively to stop a spike. My other suggestion allows it to still have it's dual use, but reduces net energy return and takes away damage immunity. Less energy means less effectiveness with other caster professions, half dmg means the ele can still drop. Both changes together means the ele has to pick and choose when to return energy.

The monk change to DF wouldn't be very effective given that there are so many skills that deal damage TOO PASSIVELY. In fact divine favor itself is almost the weakest primary attribute second only to spawning power. The bigger problem is passive degen and damage though. The divine favor change isn't the only way to help with it as they could nerf degen skills, but it's just one solution to the problem of powerful passive health gain/loss. Also you'd only get 40 heals if you spec in 2 attributes only, not a good idea.

The deadly paradox change telegraphs when a sin will strike by disabling attack skills for 3 seconds. The IAS duration I've been thinking about nerfing a bit, but the biggest problem for sins is that their energy pool isn't big enough to work with viable IAS's outside of their attribute. Palm Strike should be an attack skill to make it viably counterable then it it's fine, just becomes a crip slash build on an adrenaline rush. Currently is a crip slash build on steroids.

I didn't introduce that concept for onslaught it's been like that. I nerfed it to make it less viable for non dervishes. That's how OP wounding strike is though, so much so that onslaught is overlooked.

I do believe the barbed spear is a necessary change.

I am not completely sure about my WE change to be honest, it will either be less effective or balanced. Hopefully balanced.

Hex stacking can hopefully be taken care of by making it harder to do, so that's why I want buffs to hex removal.~>Sins WDB 20:14, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Number changes stop working as soon as a concept is bad. Immunity to damage or 50% reducal of damage AND energy management in one skill is bad and although making it less powerful makes it... Less powerful it remains to be a bad idea. Overall, when doing number changes, it is possible to balance the skills in some way or another, but usually it's the accumulation of skills that make them overpowered. For instance, your change to Faintheartedness will not really change it because it will still be layered over and over by hexes such as Suffering, Lingering Curse and Parasitic Bond. You hit two of these skills, but it is still possible to keep up layers over layers of skills. About Diversion, that skill isn't really that much of an issue since it only disables one (or two) skill on one foe at one time (unless you take more than one mesmer, but that has some negative consequences). And by your logic, Dismember would be unskillful as well because you just use it on a character with low health and don't think beyond that. Might I notice that that skill can't even be dodged at all? ZOMFG overpowered.

Your Onslaught is overpowered because it isn't an enchantment anymore and thus can't be removed. Yes, you need an enchantment for it to work but that's ANY enchantment. As soon as we're going to get in an Enchantment meta again (likely when Anet decides to nerf Hexway a bit), that skill will prove to be overpowered. Wounding Strike dervishes aren't used in the current meta for that reason. Palm Strike is overpowered because it allows the user to begin a KD chain of death, doing something a Hammer warrior needs adrenaline for. Your change makes it (somewhat) more counterable, but is it really that effective when your follow-up skills are blocked anyway? Deadly Paradox is overpowered because nobody cares about 3 seconds of disable. After those three seconds you are still able to be as surprising and effective as you normally are. Divine Favor is not underpowered because it adds a healing effect to any monk spell you cast. In other words, whenever you cast a prot skill, that ally's red bar goes up as well. When skills are added that double this bonus (Smiter's Boon, Divine Boon) are added to the equation, this attribute actually begins to be overpowered. You can both prot and heal effectively, no downsides, just gogogo. So what happens when you add additional healing to party-heals? They become stronger, that's it. Heal Party becomes more attractive to monks, especially with Healer's Boon. Like with LoD, healing becomes passive and the game becomes centered around people trying to disable the party heals. Exactly the reason why LoD was nerfed and why RC should be toned down a bit (because compared to similar other skills, it's frikkin overpowered). Regarding Backfire, this isn't a spike skill. This skill is meant to pressure out and totally disable a monk for 10 seconds. It is much MUCH worse than Diversion. Xhata 15:54, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

I understand your concern on several of the skills. Some things are obviously difference of opinion. I should point out that Onslaught would only be viable with party blanket enchants or a dedicated enchanter, it would be a waste to build a party around the skill though as it gimps your team to do so. Orders etc would have to be used and Aegis is apparently being changed, but we'll see how that goes.

Also Palm Strike as an attack skill wouldn't be guaranteed damage + cripple anymore, so yes it would have a significant effect on the skills power.

My hex changes are meant to make them less passive and therefore stacking them doesn't make them as devastating for periods of time.

Deadly Paradox telegraphs too much to make a spike a surprise. 3 seconds for a team to call its use is a lot. The change takes away from the casting time of DD and other assasscaster skills making it and them more balanced. Then there's the fact that its out of the attack attributes requiring a split, which should prevent any excessive utility from secondary's.

For DF smiter's boon is dead so no problem there. Divine boon wouldn't work with my suggestion as well. Mesmers, rits, and eles though have a significant advantage over monks with party heals for various reasons. Personally I don't see a problem with giving monks alone an extra buff to party heals. Plus its a simple way to help equalize degen pressure from hexes and conditions. I will buy the argument that 3.2 per attribute is too much for party effects though, 1.4 or something would be better for non targets.~>Sins WDB 04:22, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

A while back, when Enchantments were meta, everyone ran Smite signet mesmers and Strength of Honor on the frontlines. Due to this, Enchantments were abundant and were used a lot. Now that the meta has shifted to a less Enchantment-friendly environment, these skills are not used as much anymore. That doesn't mean Onslaught would be balanced. It would just not be useful in THIS meta, but if there would be an enchantment heavy meta again, everyone would probably run that or Wounding Strike. Thus, problems arise. You have to take things such as these in account in your balances. Push one play-style too much and it WILL become meta.

Concerning Palm Strike, yes changing it to an attack skill would remove the guaranteed-ness of that skill but it would still be overpowered. What Palm Strike needs is a different functionality.

Passive damage hexes just need to go away and degeneration hexes such as Suffering and Lingering Curse need to only target one target. There is no way hex-layering can become balanced.

Deadly Paradox can just be used BEFORE spiking because of the long duration you give it. If you're going to be able to use your IAS for most of the time then really, does it even matter that you can't benefit from it immediately? Things will look like this: Activate Deadly Paradox. Wait until your disable is over. Now you have a whopping twelve seconds to do whatever you like before it runs out. A sin spike usually takes ~4,5ish seconds. So you can just wait a few seconds and start spiking. Also, since you invested in Deadly Arts anyway, you can take one of the nice skills that line has as well. I could make a build with that if you'd like.

Smiter's Boon and Divine Boon were just examples of Divine Favor bonuses gone bad. They weren't actual suggestions. Xhata 08:52, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

My problem with the current deadly paradox is the functionality of a caster only sin. These turn out to be very powerful and not particularly well balanced. The duration of the IAS could be changed, but the functionality makes it a viable choice whether you run a casting sin or a dagger sin. I would have no problem with a shorter duration on it 7seconds at att9 or 8 seconds at att10 would be more balanced. My main issue with it is its current functionality. The Sin class is a poor design because of how dagger attacks were designed, somehow it needs to be opened up a bit. My idea with DP was to make mixing short dagger combos and other sin skills more viable.

Palm Strike opens up some of that increased functionality given that its an offhand with a short recharge. I like the general idea of it, but currently its OP and needs to be an attack skill. This is a difference of opinion in the skill that we just don't agree on I guess.

DF I still feel like should be better since it has no inter-class functionality, but I don't want it being OP so limiting the DF bonus for multiple allies effects seems viable.

As for Onslaught, I see your point. However, I just can't see it working well on anything besides a dervish even in an enchant heavy meta. Warrior's won't want to downgrade to a 25% IAS and don't have any useful self enchants to use. Therefore I'm not really worried about it. I've done lots of number crunching and even a scythe having a 33% IAS, it doesn't out damage an axe. Plus an axe attacks faster so it gets more hits in between melee hate. It's only a 25% IAS/IMS buff in anycase, so that lessens dps even more. I'm don't feel this change is better than it's current form and won't be OP. After all where's a derv gonna get it's deep wound from with that elite.~>Sins WDB 00:04, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps give assassin dagger attacks utility outside of the attack chain? Perhaps give Assassins strong utility on spells? It could all help to move the assassin away from being a lame spike class.

Off-Hand + Unconditional Cripple is just too much on one skill, even without damage. The skill needs to be either a lead-attack (which would be perfectly balanced) or have its Cripple removed. That's two very simple tweaks that solve the problem immediately.

DF is mostly fine but if you really want to change it go ahead.

Primal Rage turned out to be overpowered, so Onslaught will probably do that as well in an Enchantment heavy meta. Keep in mind a 25% IMS practically means you're unkitable except for a monk with some serious speed boosts. Also note that Onslaught practically has no downsides. That's something you should avoid at all costs.Xhata 08:30, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Just wondering if you think cripslash needs nerfed. Basically said so given your explanation for PS.~>Sins WDB 07:35, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

No, Cripslash needs charging up adrenaline. Assassins have Palm Strike ready immediately. Also, Cripslash doesn't open up a knocklock-chain of death that can be used every few seconds. Xhata 14:47, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

That's true, but to play devil's advocate sun moon gives 2 free charges to adrenaline and crip slash has the crip covered by 1 condition immdediately and second shortly after. If you use the skills in chain it only takes 2 auto attacks get the the chain restarted minus sun moon, then you can nail a bull's strike fairly easily once the cripple is applied. Like I said playing devil's advocate, and the offensive power still favor's the sin. However, on the other side the sin has 70 armor vs the 96(116phys and sometimes +10shield inscript armor) for warriors. Basically a PS sin and crip slash war are the same thing just sacrificing defense for offense. Again not saying the sin build isn't easier to use, just harder on your team to keep alive. Currently the trade off is too good since PS isn't viably counterable, the question is would the trade off be balanced if it were an attack skill. I think so, you seem to think not.~>Sins WDB 20:23, 13 May 2009 (UTC)