User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Underpowered Skills/Elementalist/Archive 2

Air Magic

Gust

Brought up above, wanted to add it to the list too. My advice for a change would be to lower the recharge to 5 and slightly pump the damage (maybe like 25...65 or something). That way, it becomes useful, still keeps the condition of a water or earth hex for KD, and adds a little more damage to the mix.--John deathblade 21:00, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I'd say just make it work on all elemental hexes so you get some RA/AB fire eles doing the Gust/Searing Heat thing and give up on the rest of it.--Mysterial 21:09, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I Say 3 second knock down, no req and add damage but make it have exhution(I can't spell) I forget what it costs but if it isnt 10 make it 10.

Yeah, pretty much this: Why not just make it the original Gale? That was a spell worthy of elite status anyway. --Heelz 08:54, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

That's a decent idea. Keep Gale as it is and make Gust as the old Gale was.--Drekmonger 10:46, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

You can't make it the origonal gale because then Gale would be better since its not an elite. If you add damage to this skill added on to the origonal gale then you got a skill.

I'd really like to see that. Gust just wouldn't need the hex condition if it carried exhaustion and damage. My only reservation would be; would you then not just be creating another version of Mind Shock (with an extra second on the knock and no energy clause, instead of spike damage)? I don't know how to answer that, but I'd still like to see this happen... Fro 19:38, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to see it happen too hehe. But it's not another Mind Shock really, you stated yourself the differences and it's enough for them to be 2 really different skills. One spikes hard but has energy limitation. One knocks reliably and for longer, but deals little damage. Too totally different uses for them. Patccmoi 02:55, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

imo gale is better, make aoe or something I think we have enough single target spells in air magic, it would be nice to have another useful aoe spell there (knockdown target foe only)

The damage is a bonus for this skill, but it's hands down desirable for knocklocking. Izzy mentioned elsewhere that he doesn't want to open up the opportunity for consistently chained KD. I like the idea of any elemental hex working but I'd take it one step further - make it like Invoke Lightning, in that it will do its described effect (in this case, damage and 3 sec KD) but cause exhaustion unless the target is affected by an elemental hex. --Tensei 01:05, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

2 ways to make this good. 1) 5e 1/4c 12r Unconditional 3s KD and causes exhaustion. 2) 5e, c, 10r unconditional 3s KD causes exhaustion. If target is under the effects of an elemental hex this skill does not cause exhaustion. The elite is too condition, make it less conditional. -Warskull 04:03, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

"Target enemy and all nearby enemies are struck for X..X cold damage. Enemies struck by Gust under X..X% health are knocked down. Enemies activating signets are knocked down and the signet is disabled for X..X seconds." 74.14.106.67 02:14, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Damage, and a 3 second knockdown every 10 seconds if you mix with earth or water hexes, no exhaustion. That last part makes it elite IMO.--BahamutKaiser 22:06, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

The damage is almost meaningless. The 10 second recharge is annoying at best, and the hex requirement kills the skill. Ironically the last part which you suggest grants it gold-rim status is the reason it really doesn't deserve anything of the sort. Exhaustion is not a problem at all when played properly. Even if you occasionally lose it and spam like a moron as I do ^_^. It needs a better job. Fro 19:39, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Who can spam knockdowns more? The guy who does 2 seconds of knockdown every 6 seconds, and is unable to do anything at all after 7 uses for probably til he's dead. Or the guy who uses a Water hex which can include damage and snare, or Blurred, and does damage and knocks down 3 out of 11 seconds? The same thing that penalizes this ability also benifits it, using useful water magic abilities and getting damage from one or both, wile conserving energy and getting stronger knockdowns.

Sounds really cumbersome unless you consider synergized use, if you have a water or earth and air elementist working together, the effects can be stacked for high value. You can even have a ranger of water hexing flush the foe with ice damage snares wile an elementist holds them down. But probably the best option is for a Ranger to use the very cheap Gust ability which doesn't require significant investment to offer strong knockdown, and have a full power water elementist poor on effects like Deep Freeze, Blurred Vision, Chilling Wind, and Ice Spikes, making very certain that that foe is not going anywhere except the grave.

This definetly requires skill synergy, and it may not be highly advertised because elementist secondaries arn't the top of the list, even if grasping earth, earth defense spells and Aftershock would go hand in hand with Gust and Whirlwind, maybe even on the same build. Popularity and potential often disagree on balance.--BahamutKaiser 21:29, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

My comment about 'spamming' (exaggerated for humor naturally) refers to some occasions when you really want to brute-force your oppression. You may end up casting 3 Gale's in 15 seconds. By the end of the 3rd cast, you'd have around 22 exhaustion. On and elementalist bar this is almost nothing. Especially if the windows you created were worth it.

It comes down to how important knockdown is to you. Gale provides you with a window of opportunity more or less whenever you feel like it. This skill requires a hex to achieve the same thing. Which will leave you with a pitiful 4-5 seconds to find your window of opportunity. A painfully obvious window at that. Most of your water hexes will be tasked with controlling melee anyway. There is very little to gain from a 3 second knocked warrior who is already moving 66% slower. Switching to a soft target to create a window makes your 'game' all the more obvious.

Deep Freeze takes an age to use. Most monks don't remove water snares unless there is a serious need to (eg. under heavy fire). You can bet your water hexes that as soon as the opposition sees DF casting (might as well tell them on local chat), the target will be veiled (your cast direction makes it stupidly obvious). The only skill that can offer anything close to the required water hex saturation (read as masking) is Frozen Burst. However your energy will be shot and after a few bursts, no one will be in nearby range anymore. Earth hexes really aren't practical for this purpose so I'll leave it at that.

So... An elite version of Gale but one which makes your windows of opportunity far smaller and non-existent against solid teams. This is why this skill is weak. Popularity has nothing to do with it.Fro 22:20, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

As long as we are pretending it does the same thing, of course it woln't beat gale..... it doesn't do the same thing, the difference between a 2 second and 3 second knockdown is usually death, and the minimal damage is still damage.

Beyond that, nothing here shows any reason why gale and gust can't be used together, I mean, you may as well put up a case for fire attunement being better than elemental attunement because it is only 17% less effective and doesn't use an elite. I don't agree with the recast on alot of water nukes personally, so I'm not going to try and prorate this based on the ineffectiveness of another skill, but even now, you can use shard storm in one second, and Gust in another, and conveniently, they have the same recharge time.

Snares are not all about stoping melee from assaulting you, full ranged snares are especially effective at stoping priority targets like monks, and knockdowns are useful for snaring and disabling. Since I've seen people bring Glyph of Energy just so they can mitigate the exhaustion of gale, I think it's a fair deal to have a 3 second knockdown which requires water magic hexing.--BahamutKaiser 03:15, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

3 second knock in a tiny to non-existent window is not good enough. Certainly not better than Gale. Players needing Glyph of Energy to deal with exhaustion are either running a gimmick (knock, knock, everywhere all day, making it far less potent a strategy for disruption due to saturation) or are not playing Gale that well. Fro 13:25, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

ashesfalldown Gust - Add additional 8-60 damage if target foe is under the effect of earth or water hex. Increase cost to 10 energy, Increase recharge to 15 secs. ashesfalldown 11/17/07

Elite Spell. Target foe is struck for (10...82...100) cold damage and that foe is knocked down for (0...3...4) seconds. This Spell causes Exhaustion.

Even if this is a bad idea, it's still something. And anything that's over-powered can always be readjusted later. Is it just me or are they only changing skill sets one at a time? RitualDoll 03:04, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

"Elite Spell Target foe is struck with 15...90...110 lightning damage, this spell has 25% ap and knocks down target foe." 25e 2c 20r This way, the skill is powerful and won't be spammed. Prokiller88 01:43, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Thunderclap

Too high energy loss 15-7 energy every time regardless target is knocked down or not. Any lighning dmg of your team will drain energy. Limited use, hard to form a build around. Too easy counter, easy to remove. Conjure lightning will trigger energy loss twice. 0 damage. Elite status. Voted underpowered at gwonline. Voted lame at gamewikis.org. I would like to see a little buff or something imo not worth building a complete team around it.

It's a KD lock skill, which is lame if viable. It needs a rework, not a buff. --TimeToGetIntense 02:10, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

What about KD if you have more energy and then you lose x energy, or does that just seem too much like the mind spells? --Racthoh 07:21, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Simply change it so you only lose the energy when the target gets knocked down, and it's much more effective. Maybe even raise the amount of energy lost at that point... now you can still keep up an offense without going broke on energy, but keeping them KD-locked is still prohibitively expensive. -- Jioruji Derako.> 10:16, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

This skill is underpowered in high-end PvP but because of its power that's how it should be. This is a GREAT fun skill; try using it in RA for instance, it absolutely ownz. If you know how to build a whole skillbar around it (no, wont help ya) and use proper equipment (no, wont help ya, but you can search around). At that point this skill turns out of be a great fun skill. I use to catch 2-3 players every now and then, and KD-lock em (keep knocking em all the time, together, since spell is adjacent). And I've had people asking me for a build I use, which they certainly wouldn't if this was 'the most underpowered skill'. Servant of Kali 01:54, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

This isn't underpowered...use a skill bar like this

Air Attunement

Thunderclap

Brambles

Conjure Lightning

Resurrection Signet

Blank

Blank

Blank

--§ Eloc § 19:28, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Well.... actually Conjure Lightning is bad, because it will drain your energy 2x as fast. Every time you hit target you'll kd it once, but you do lightning damage from both Conjure and Weapon, which means your energy will be deducted for both as well. Servant of Kali 00:22, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok then, remove the Conjure lightning from the skill bar. It still is constant KD with Bleeding + dmg.--§ Eloc § 00:27, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I thought about it a bit and it would be nice if a skill was slightly buffed because it needs that. Nothing big because it has to be unplayable in high-end PvP. Something like "Every time target foe is knocked down as a result of this skill, that foe takes 5..20 damage". Damage can be tweaked ofc. So, if target is knocked down with Hammer Bash, nothing happens. If he's striken by lightning damage and knocked down, damage applies. Servant of Kali 10:20, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

This is a great skill if used judiciously, it just needs to be changed so it doesn't shoot out energy if it isn't going into effect, because it is basically robbery. Another alteration that could benifit it is if it only triggered when you deal lightning damage, that way it is further limited in power, and allows the user to manage his energy.

Even if your whole build is wanding lighting damage and using energy stealing skills to keep your energy up, perma-knockdown is a powerful shutdown build which is plenty powerful enough, damage plus knockdown upon each hit is obnoxious..... excuse me..... perma AoE knockdown.--BahamutKaiser 22:55, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Keep the energy cost/recharge the same and add in another effect maybe something like, "Elite Hex Spell. For 20 seconds, if target foe is struck for lightning damage, that foe and adjacent foes are knocked down, and you lose 15...9...7 Energy or Thunderclap ends. When Thunderclap ends that foe takes 1...3...6 lightning damage for each second Thunderclap was in effect." That way it would do damage when the hex ends or when the user of the hex is out of energy giving it a dual purpose and potentially some nice damage. OblivionDanny 16:28, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Target foe and foes in area around target are knocked down and take 12 - 85 damage, this spell causes exhaustion if it hits more then 1-3 foes (can get 4 foes if set to 16 air). 15 cost, 2 to cast, 20 recharge. ashesfalldown 11/16/07 Edited 11/17/06

Wouldn't that make it an inferior version of Meteor? -- Gordon Ecker 04:12, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Meteor is Adjacent foes, my version of Thunderclap is in area around foe, I updated the damage and recharge and added condition for exhaustion based on attribute points in Air magic. I think it would be way more useful then it is atm in gw now. ashesfalldown 11/17/06

Oh my...'area' range belongs to the 25 energy range. Lightblade 00:26, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Glimmering Mark

I've just remembered this skill exists lately and i thought it could be really nice as an alternative to Blinding Surge or something close to it. I haven't seen anybody using this skill, either in PvE or PvP so far so i don't know if some ppl use it and how but i think it could be buffed a bit so it could be used more easily. First, 2s cast, which makes it really vulnerable to disruption in PvP compared to BS, it could be lowered to 1s cast imo. Then if you consider that you have to wand your target with this to trigger blindness' effect, increasing blindness' duration up to 7s could be fine too. The duration of the hex is fine as it is however and if you find these changes a bit too much, increasing its reload to 7s won't be too bad maybe. The strength of this skill is that it plays in two differents windows : hex and conditions. if you want to get rid of this, you can just remove the hex but with this reload time you can reapply it rather easily even if the cooldown between wanding/applying makes it hard to use compared to BS. However, you can cover this with Blurred Vision for example, or with your fellow Necro Faintheartedness. It deals nicely with Draw Conditions, just like Ebon Dust Aura if the hex remains on the target too. Btw i consider it as a very nice concept and way of playing for the game : an active hex that requires you to reapply it very often and to always switch and regularly wand all the targets you want to keep blind, active because it does nothing unless you act by wanding, it's pretty close to Ward of Weakness. The fact is, i'm getting bored with all those BS Ele, i know that it's not because i'm bored with this that skills must change but it really hurts me actually, there are really nice elite like Mind Shock/Gust/Invoke in Air Magic but they are not used really often, maybe increasing this skill's effectiveness would grant Air E more choice or just another way of playing. I dunno if anyone cares about it actually, just delete my post if that doesn't wander in anybody's mind, i also strongly doubt that ppl would run it instead of BS even with the aforementionned changes and i don't want to nerf BS too, it's just for a more healthy gaming purpose. At least i'll run it sometimes ~~ Azul 11:12, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I can see this being more useful with something like "Target foe is struck for X..X Lightning Damage. Each time target takes Lightning Damage, they are blinded for X..X seconds. When Glimmering Mark ends, target loses all conditions and is knocked down." Make the initial damage cause blinding, 8 to 10 second Recharge, 1 Second Cast, 10 Energy cost. Makes it similar to Blinding Surge, but more harmful if not removed properly. 74.14.106.67 02:00, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I think this is fine, it just lacks the utility of damage and blindness. This costs less energy to spray blindness on adjacent foes, and also doesn't require them to be enchanted for additional AoE blinding, I would rather see the AoE go up before anything else, that would be devestating because nearby catches alot more units, the duration could even go down if the AoE went up.--BahamutKaiser 23:37, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

This skill isn't viable because you have to hit your target twice to blind him. First you put this hex on your target (this already takes 2 seconds) and then you or your team still have to hit him with lightning damage to cause blindness for (only) 5 seconds. Blinding Surge is much faster with 3/4 cast time, press a button and boom your target is blinded and if that foe is under the effects of an enchantment, all adjacent foes are also blinded. Also no nerf to bsurge will make this skill viable, simply because it takes too long to put this hex on a foe before you can blind him. Suggestion: (10, 3/4, 5) Elite Hex Spell. For 1...13...16 seconds, whenever target foe suffers lightning damage, that foe and all adjacent foes suffer from Blindness for 7 seconds. 87.189.248.160 17:03, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Lightning Hammer

It's unbelievably underpowered for 25 energy. Buffing the damage would make air spike far more common again, though. Dump the damage a bit and bring it down to 15 energy? Armond 00:35, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

This is the own in Dual Attune Air eles, which are going to be coming back since Blinding Surge took a hit. --Deathwing 01:45, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

This is one of the core skill for a dual attunement air spiker. Cost only around 5 energy with both attunements on. --Shadetz X 06:20, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Dual atunements for the win. This skill is by far the best skill ever for dual atunements. You can litterly SPAM this skill with dual atunements. This skill is good as it is. Rotgorts invocation has AoE thisone has 25% armor penetration. They are both awesome on dual atuneners. 84.192.118.21 07:32, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

But if you don't use dual attunement it costs way too much with too little benefit... Armond 16:31, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

That is why skills have synergies with other skills. The game would be boring if no skills worked together and everything just worked on it's own. --Deathwing 17:09, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I always considered LHammer fine since the recharge was brought down to 4s, and i still think it is, but it's quite funny to see Rodgort's, which has basically the same strenght but in Nearby AOE (the 25% AP doesn't matter, RI has 42 damage worth of burning which ignores armor altogether), be brought down SO CLOSE in cast time/recharge. RI is definitely a more powerful spell than LH now, it's not even comparable. But since Air has more utility (for example you can bring BFlash on dual attune air but you got nothing of the sort on dual attune fire), it doesn't mean any of them needs a fix. Just funny to compare Patccmoi 19:07, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Armor penetration is a big deal in my opinion, first of all air is for pvp(4 man teams and flashers) and fire for pve(or Ha and Gvg for AoE spam or now rotgorts spike). so if u put this skill next to rotgorts in a 4 man arena lightning hammer with the shorter recharge and armor penetration will do more dammage then a rotgorts since most of the time foes won 't even nearby. I do agree this skill now is kinda overpowered but still it can only be used if you use your elite slot as energy management wich can be a loss for certain builds. You 'll never see this skill in an SF build and not have him have energy problems. This skill adds life again to what once was the best fire magic build in PvE The Dual atune Fire Nuker wich had been thrown in the garbage can ever SF came out. SF still does more dammage then RI (its an elite anyway), but rotgorts needs elite energy management. Although i think it won 't be long till this skill gets nerfed again.84.192.118.21 21:29, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes Rodgort's Invocation blows Lightning Hammer away, but Lightning Hammer is *terrible*. Yes there are awful skills in the game, you can't use unplayable garbage for comparison if you're trying to shake things up at all. -Ensign 22:37, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Maybe Lightning Hammer could gain some utility with GW:EN? 'If target foe is suffering from Cracked Armor, that foe is knocked down'. Would combo nicely with Shell Shock. And sure, it's a kd on 4s recharge, but it relies on a condition that's all in all not really spammable and it's also 25E/2s cast which means that interruption is a freaking pain. KD and Cracked Armor req seem to fit with the utility of Air Eles, and it seems to make sense with the skill name too Patccmoi 16:05, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

(indent reset)That sounds good, especially if we look at skills like Stoning which has drawbacks of its own. Note, though, that Hammer on -20 AL, plus AP, could be pretty darned nasty. ~Seef II <?|?> 06:39, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

The maximum damage of Lightning Hammer will still be whatever it is on 60 AL. It will just piss of Warriors a lot. --TimeToGetIntense 20:45, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Crack armor effect? I dunno. Pretty bad skill tbh. Readem Promote My Ban Here 06:11, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

We could add a knockdown maybe? The name sounds like something to do with Knockdowns.--§ Eloc § 06:14, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

KD would be too powerful. You would be able to pin down both monks simultaneously, while still doing a significant amount of damage that has armor penetration. Readem Promote My Ban Here 06:19, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Raise recharge.--§ Eloc § 08:11, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

To what, 10-15? Then they have to kill both your Monks in 15 Seconds? Nooooo! Readem Promote My Ban Here 18:42, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Now that I've finally come back to look at this, yes skills have synergy together, but you shouldn't be forcing people to use a specific combination to make a skill effective. It's pretty much worthless unless you're dual attune, because non-projectilism isn't worth the 10 energy. Suppose I want to take Invoke or something along those lines. In PvE, I'd rather have Invoke and this with KD if the target has cracked armor than dual attune just for this. Granted, dual attune means I get to use some other high energy spells, but that's just a neat side effect... How many non-elite 25e air skills are there that I'd want to take? Armond 03:34, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh wait, this is the ONLY 25e air magic skill. Hmm. The only air magic skill I'd ever need dual attunes to consistently use. Hmm... Armond 01:13, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, this skill is perfect, it offers certain damage and combines beautifully with Duals. Rodgorts Invocation on the other hand is perhaps overcompensating for the Fire Magic line, it truely makes me reconsider Searing Flame, because what Searing Flame can do in 5 seconds, RI can do every 4 seconds, with more damage, and lower cost for not only this, but all the other fire spells used in a Dual Attunement build. I'm not going to say this kind of damage doesn't belong in Fire magic, but nearby nuke damage and burning every 4 seconds is too powerful, it should be 6 seconds at best, even if it is trying to be worthy without dual attunements, and Searing Flame may need to be increased to Area, or reduced to 10 energy cost to compete.

It is in the right direction, but RI is just a little too strong.--BahamutKaiser 00:30, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Energy whores are perfect now? =\ Armond 08:09, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

This skill can't really be compared to RI. They're used for completely different things. Besides, that, why would we want to buff SF any more, given its rampant abuse now? Anyhow, there's benchmark skills for every attribute, and Air has three of them: Gale, Lightning Orb, and Blinding Flash. Lightning Hammer, obviously, gets compared to Lightning Orb, as it doesn't knock down or blind (the two other things air does). I would never run this over Lightning Orb - line of sight is too easy to get. Armond 21:23, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

That was said before they returned SF, anyhow, with dual attunement the difference between lightning hammer and orb is 2 energy, and the fact that hammer recharges faster and can't miss, if you can use dual tune it is 100 percent better, and if you use both orb and hammer you can douse a foe with damage rather quickly.

Hammer is prohibitive with most builds, but certain builds make it easy to spam without reguard, and for single unit repeatable spike damage, it is hard to beat. Now Rodgort on the other hand is just a tad overpowered, it offers top notch damage and burning in an AoE every 4 seconds, I just think another 1 or 2 seconds would knock it into place, but with a repeat rate of 7 seconds and SF being bumped up in burning, RI is alright.--BahamutKaiser 22:45, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Read what I said above. I should not be forced to use a specific elite in order to make a skill worth using. Face it - hammer is simply inferior to orb. The point is not that hammer is inferior to RI, or that RI is overpowered, we're talking about how hammer is underpowered. Armond 01:52, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Na, elemental attunement is a namestay of discount spell damage, to be able to bring down undodgeable hammers of lightning at a faster pace than Lightning Orb no less is easily worth 25 energy, and it doesn't require anything specific, any energy management skill can be used to make this feasible and bringing 2 energy management skills is pretty common for elementist, theres nothing wrong with a heavy cost for a punishing attack, that is how elementist works.

We all know how it worked before, and it was worthless because you had to play alot and wait alot. Well they got it right now, you have to pay alot and don't have to wait alot. Now there is really only 1 alternative, wait alot and pay less. Personally, I would like to be able to do alot of damage instead of having a bargain skill every few minutes, because as nice as 125 damage is, once every 15 or 20 seconds really isn't offering anything useful. Don't screw up a good thing, just because you don't enjoy a perfectly useful build.--BahamutKaiser 02:46, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I guess you missed the part where Ensign said "Lightning Hammer is *terrible*." It isn't a good thing, and we won't be screwing it up by making it usable (because, right now, it simply isn't - aside from flimsy dual-attune pve bars that throw away elite utility for energy). This isn't a case of some hidden synergy, its a case of a weak, sloppy skill (hammer) being only usable with a shitty elite. -Auron 02:59, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

No amount of lame insulting changes the fact that attunment is a great elite, and there is plenty of utility between normal abilities without an elite attack spell. Dual Attunment and Hammer can put out more damage than any lightning elite spell, along with putting out blind, more damage from orb, and whatever else you want to run, perhaps cracked armor, gust, or whatever else.

Point is, this is just flagrant prejudice, a few people dislike attunments because they can be risky, and a you want to insult it, so what, it is still a great skill, the ultimate energy management for elemental application, the fact that there is a little risk with basically unlimited energy and free max damage attacks, which still trigger Aura of Restoration, is simply a balance neccessity to keep it in check. I don't really care if you don't like it, it is a great, not good, GREAT SKILL. Cover your attunements with Aura of Restoration, that's what it has a 5 second recharge for.

Not every skill will work for your gameplay style, that isn't a flaw, it is a preferance, and since it offers a, not good, but unparrallel output, it is alright, whether you like it or not. Now if that is all, we can continue to "vote" on it, or perhaps you can come up with a reason why it is disfunctional instead of why you dislike it.--BahamutKaiser 05:35, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps now that it's been pointed out that intelligent people agree with me there'll be less argument that this sucks? =\

Edit conflict: Guess not. For starters, don't say we're doing the "lame insulting" when you're the one who is, once again, bordering on (if not crossing) NPA and we're simply stating facts. We don't dislike attunements because they're risky, we dislike dual attuning because it sucks. Why should my elite be devoted to energy management when I can take something better, like bsurge, invoke, or even, to a point, mind shock? (Ever wonder why almost no one runs energy storage elites?) And you still haven't explained why hammer is usable without a specific elite and even a specific build. That makes it underpowered. There is absolutely no excuse to not take a good elite and lightning orb over hammer and dual attune. That's not a play style issue, that's a fact... running a utility elite and using lightning orb as damage will win out over a dual attune bar every day of the week. In fact, when was the last time you saw a dual attune bar in any sort of organized, non-scrub PvP? Back before elemental attunement was under energy storage? And even then it was mesmers, not eles, using it... Armond 06:10, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

How insecure, you think I care what you think about me.... I was talking about insulting the skill by underestimating the value of the most effective energy management option for an elementist, as I said, I don't really care what you think about it, it is very effective. BSurge, has and advantage, Mind Shock, are you joking me? The damage output and consistency for Lightning Hammer is unparrallel, and like RI, it is designed particularly with dual attunment in mind to offer a powerful attack option if a build like that is used. There are alot of energy elites, and if an elementist chooses the route of enegy spam, high cost, high potency abilities become alot more viable. Dual Attunment is the easiest way to pump out a basically unlimited number of spells without ever worrying about energy cost, it's advantages and disadvantages are properly balanced to offer a competative advantage with a selection of skills.

Now you can deny it, insult it, or bring up NPA as if I care a lick, but that doesn't change Attunments from being a good skill selection, nor lightning hammer from being an effective high damage output skill. The cost is balanced for it's advantage over related skills, and it is not underpowered, period. The only issue here is that you want a skill that fits into your build better rather than another build which already exist, and is already in use. You think Bsurge and Invoke have more utility?, give me a break, the ability to spam Hammer, Orb, and Flash as freely as you want for higher damage amount and consistency than any elite damage option and effective blind enough to place on 2 foes at once, and the additional option to add 1 or 2 other spells to damage, add another condition, or offer utility skills is plenty competative.

The flat out fact is, it's cost, recharge and damage are balanced, and there are applicable uses for it. If it doesn't fit in YOUR build, that is YOUR problem, because there are good build to use it in, and it is balanced accordingly to it's power and frequency. Your build may not allow that kind of energy expense, which is why your build uses orb, a less effective and less costly skill. The skill cannot get better, that is all there is too it, you can shave off the cost and get a large recast time making it a cheaper and worthless skill, becuase the damage output woln't compete. The fact is it cannot be changed without making it broken or crappy, it is balanced perfectly, and it really doesn't matter if you like it or if you like the means which it can be employed with extreme effectiveness, not good, not acceptable, extreme.--BahamutKaiser 16:00, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

So you're saying that it works for your build and is therefore good and doesn't deserve to be changed? =\ Oh, and I do run dual attune every now and then, just for kicks. So no, I'm not talking about "my one build". And as anyone with any skill at all will tell you, orb is not less effective than hammer. You should always be able to hit someone with orb. Not moving into line of sight is for lazy people, and the game is not balanced around lazy people. In an ideal situation, every skill would have its pluses and minuses and see use in PvP. What I would like for this skill is a balance that puts it on par with orb, but makes each of them superior in some bars instead of others. Armond 17:47, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

What you want is exactly what I said, you can't come up with a feasible fix because it is balanced, and making any changes will break or overpower the skill. Line of Site and Projectile delivery is a significant weakness anyway, projectiles can be blocked, miss very easily against an active target, and being able to nuke through a barrier without being in visible range is an obvious benifit, great for when you are using terrain effectively to shield yourself from projectiles, like orb, wile pummelling a foe with high damage.

We don't need another orb, and if that is what you wan't ask for extra copies, lightning hammer has an original benifit and effective uses, so what if it isn't what you like, it has effective uses, and alot of people like it, it isn't broken, it is balanced, and your petty bias doesn't merit a change. If your creative enough to come up with a better version than have at it, I would like to see you try, until then, stop whining about a working skill, it isn't orb and it doesn't need to be.--BahamutKaiser 21:02, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Just to clear this up for those who find the bewildering difference between this skill's 25 energy to lightning strike's 5 energy, which deals only half the damage of lightning hammer. The point is all about spikability. with the recharge on both of these skills, it is not possible to fire it more than once in the same spike before prot comes in and easily blunts the attack. The deciding thing is that Lightning hammer, with a reasonable number of teammates, can spike a target down in an instant, Lightning strike cannot and never will, even with all 8 people on the team doing it, which is a stupid assumption. Also, energy isn't everything, particularly for an elementalist. --Ckal Ktak 22:05, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Bahamut, if you want my suggestions on what to do with this skill, I will gladly point you to the original post under this topic. Armond 02:56, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

LOL, I ment a good proposal, we already have lightning strike for 5 energy and half the power, if you want a medium one that's fine, but it doesn't mean this skill should be nerfed to fit your playstyle.--BahamutKaiser 04:42, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

How difficult is it for you to understand that there are better players than you out there that know more about the game than you and know - not think - that certain skills are unbalanced? Your entire argument throughout this entire thread has been that it suits "your" playstyle and therefore must not suit "our playstyle". That logic is simply incorrect; we have tried to explain time and time again why this is, and your response seems to be to ignore our posts and continue to insist that the skill is simply fine without any sort of logic to the purpose of making these debates practically unusable for any practical purpose. I am struggling to come up with a single discussion where you didn't flagrantly disagree with posters who were both highly experienced in game and exceedingly logical (and clear in this logic) as to why said skill did or didn't need adjusting. Are you purposely playing the devil's advocate in everything you post? (If not, is this simply more of you not caring about the community, as you've stated before?) You are arguing with Ensign, who knows more about the game than the game's creators! I have known people to be booted from guilds that they were otherwise in good standing with because they made the same mistake! Ensign knows more than you do about the game, I can guarantee that without knowing anything about you. Judging by your posts and your logic, I guarantee that Auron knows more about the game than you do. In fact, I would even say that there's a fifty-fifty chance that I know more about the game than you, and I'm nowhere near their levels of experience!

Not only that, you constantly and flagrantly misrepresent what we say. Where did I ever say I wanted a copy of Lightning Strike or Lightning Orb? For all intents and purposes, this skill is already a copy of Lightning Orb but with higher cost (once again, if you cannot get line of sight to your target, you need to move, because movement is one of the most basic concepts of the game!), and why would I want it nerfed to Lightning Strike's level if I put it on the underpowered skills list? Quote me when I said I wanted either of them, please, and while you're at it, find out when I said I wanted it "nerfed to fit [my] playstyle".

Your response to everything is "it's balanced, it just doesn't fit your playstyle." Fine, if that were true I'd accept it, but you are blatantly wrong! I'm not going to go over why again, but your only argument ever used - or so it seems from the frequency of its use - is wrong!

The idea behind these discussions is that they will be helpful to the devs when they make changes. To do that, we must have productive discussions. You are not helping this at all, between your misunderstanding of the game, misrepresentation of other users' comments, and constant and consistent NPA violations. Should I be able to predict an NPA violation (or damn close to it) every time I see you post - and be right far more often than not?

To admins - this is an explosion of feelings. If I've violated NPA or anything, take what actions are needed. If I were feeling more sane I probably wouldn't have posted this, so whatever I deserve, I accept. Armond 04:50, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Lightning Hammer is not the problem so much as Air Magic is the problem. RI absolutely owns Lightning Hammer, in all respects. That's not really debatable. And RI should, as Fire lacks utility, and you aren't going to have many successful RI spikes. It's a pressure build. And a good one at that. Air Magic possesses some utility, but that utility cannot compete with a contemporary Fire Magic line. You have blind, essentially, pulling off of Air Magic's weight. Lightning Magic in general needs several skills buffed not with damage, but with additional utility. Make Lightning Strike double strike for a 25% damage reduction if an opponent is suffering from weakness. Make Lightning Hammer interrupt attack skills. Make Lightning Orb knock down opponents that are suffering from blind and weakness. Air Magic doesn't need to be turned into the next Fire Magic. It needs to work as it was intended: a potentially spikeable moderate damage line that duals as an attacker deterrent. This isn't prophecies anymore, and new chapter skills have made passive healing and active protection powerful enough that Air Magic has lost its luster, and has turned into being a "blind b****" line. --Reklaw 23:14, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Um, you have blind, weakness, knockdown, and damage, all from one line. Making Orb knock down people suffering from weakness begs Echarge-Orb, which spikes a monk and makes him unable to heal. Armond 05:53, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

The KD ability in Air has been lacking since Factions came out, and weakness isn't that great when you already have blind in the same line to cover attackers, although the att reduction weakness gives is something, I suppose. The Lightning Orb thing was just a quick idea. Make it cause weakness to blind foes, or something. Whatever. --Reklaw 06:44, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Let us not forget, if you want a single target direct damage attribute, have a look at channeling. Lots of skills that do damage +some other effect so it isn't a dublicate of lightning strike. --Ckal Ktak 21:29, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

That would be exactly why rit spike was so overpowered. Also, what more do you need than Gale for a kd? And Blind and Weakness are both there so you can use them on different targets. Armond 04:35, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Ride the Lightning

Remove Exhaustion, increase recharge. ashesfalldown 11/16/07

I would have to agree with this. For what it does it isn't really worth the elite spot. I can't see a good reason to take this elite skill over a shadow stepping skill and a great elite with lesser recharge and from safer locations. Maybe if it was more tempting for everyone to use(remove exhaustion) this would be more tempting to use. 65.23.232.115 17:31, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

RtL is actually sort of a decent skill. It's helpful for escaping melee attackers and coordinating a spike with something like Augury of Death + Lightning Orb. The exhaustion doesn't really come into play that often on a good build. It just drains energy pretty drastically. With AoR + Air Attune + Rez + RtL + AoD, you aren't left with much room for something like glyph of lesser energy. You need a couple of basic attacks to utilize the elite, after all. So, you essentially end up either bringing Lightning Strike (laugh) or Shell Shock (to simply assist taking down the high AL targets) along with Lightning Orb. --Reklaw 20:29, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Add arcane echo to this, teleport twice on someone with low health, follow it up with shock and finnish them with lightning touch, cost much, adds exhaustion but is awsome. --Cursed Angel 20:53, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

The problem is if they get any sort of healing you fail. And you're devoting half a bar to the assumption that they'll be low on health. Armond 04:47, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Moved from Talk:Ride the Lightning:

Balancing: Getting there. The real thing that makes this skill a weaker choice than, to be honest, Death's Charge is the exhaustion. Combined with the elite status, it's just not worth choosing. The damage and armor penetration is nice, especially after the update, but it's not worth it on anything but a primary elementalist, in my opinion, who shouldn't be anywhere near the front lines. Taking off the elite status would cause a swarm of W/E RtL/Eviscerate warriors in pretty much anything resembling PvP, and buffing the damage won't really make it that worth it until it's nearly an OHKO, so the only other viable option I see is removing the exhaustion. Armond 18:22, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm thinking about giving a knockdown, and maybe upping the recharge to 10. (Wisteria 04:47, 13 December 2007 (UTC))

Actually, I rather like where this skill went, it's the first skill to really only use exhaustion as its balancing mechanism only. You can really go overboard with this and deliver some disgraceful damage, but you pay the the price in the long run. What this spell really needs are touch range air magic skills which make sense with it, shock is another whammy of exhaustion, so that's a pain, lightning touch asks for att splits, whcih isn't worth it for one skill alone whirlwind doesn't score you kills with damage. The only think I can think of is Shellshock, RTL and some kind of wierdass dagger combo with conjure lightning for kicks, Golden Lotus/fox strike, Fang strike and Death Blossom with a lightning touch to finish. --Ckal Ktak 20:08, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Whirlwind

Not a totally awful skill but could use a bit of an energy reduction considering it doesn't do much damage and has a 2 second knockdown and a 1.75 aftercast or the knockdown time could be increased to 3 Jigoku 01:40, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, it's only really good on NPC elementalists in AB. Armond 02:37, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

You'd think a skill with this name would be sort of like Meteor Shower and cause a KD every few seconds in an area of effect, or at least interrupt skills, slow movement... --Reklaw 21:21, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Earth Magic

Magnetic Aura

While not a bad skill in itself, it is rather weak when compared to the other Earth Magic defensive skills. Armor of Earth, Stoneflesh Aura and Sliver Armor and not only less situational, but they don't suffer from a long recharge time like Magnetic Aura does. I like the skill's effect, I truly do, but the recharge time is what makes me turn away from this skill. Maybe if the recharge was lowered to 30 seconds and the effect to 50%, or just the recharge to 45 seconds.Nicky Silverstar 08:09, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Following the idea i gave for Swirling, i could see this skill being much more interesting like this : 10/1/20, 'For 5..10..11 seconds, you and nearby allies have 50% chance to block melee attacks'. It would fit with a Magnetic Aura, and it would greatly reward positioning. Kinda like a short Ward against Melee that moves around with you, but with a smaller AOE. This could be used to help saving allies from spike, etc. Would take good player skill to use efficiently and would give earth something more in terms of party defense. It already has far too much in terms of self-defense. Patccmoi 00:56, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

The wards give Earth Elementalists plenty of party defense.Nicky Silverstar 08:07, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

How about..."For 5..10..11 seconds, all nearby foes attack 50% slower and if any of their attacks miss they are knocked down." Sounds fun to me. --Deathwing 08:16, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

60 recharge is reason why people don't use it, + it doesn't do any dmg like whirling defense and can be easily removed

WD is 60 recharge as well and I highly doubt people bring WD for the damage return on piercing attacks. The key difference is that one is a stance and the other is an enchantment. Enchantment removal is more commonplace than stance removal. Also, as pointed out, the Earth line provides other, better alternatives especially Ward Against Melee, which offers protection to all allies in the aoe.--Tensei 22:52, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Like so many otehr skills, this would benefit from decreased duration and decreased recharge: change it from a "Nobody can attack me affectively for 20s!" to a "I'll just hit this and save myself!" Eitehr 2-10s with a 30s recharge or 1-7 with a 20s recharge. Maestro Ed 00:21, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I like the idea for swirling and magnetic aura to be mobile nearby defenses for projectile and melee damage, even than, both should have about 20 seconds of effect and 40 seconds of recharge, but I think mobility is a serious utility which should be more valuable. Wile this would offer AoE blocking for a group, only one enchantment needs to be removed to lose the effect, the idea is great for both of them. Even if it had a continous cycle of use, it wouldn't change the fact that it only offers defense against a small wing of offense on yourself only, and would almost never be considered over Wards simply because of support value.--BahamutKaiser 22:21, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Enchantment based- "Shields Up!"/protector's defense IMO. It would make it a enchantment (thus removable)anti-projectile skill to stop the plethora of Savage Shots. --Life Infusion «T» 03:22, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Obsidian Flesh

It might be just me, but I think Obsidian Flesh is severly underpowered. The armor cap is the final nail in this skill's coffin, +20 armor just isn't enough when you become a magnet for melee attackers. When taking into account that the game has more physical attackers than ever (OF won't affect Paragons of Dervishes at all, the dervish can even use its devastating adjecent spells to even greater effect, since you cannot run), this skill just doesn't seem to be usable except in some very specific farming builds. In PvP, even if they cannot harm you, all they have to do is stay out of range for just a few seconds (which is easy) before the unleash their attacks. Compared to skills like Spell Breaker and Vow of Silence, OF just doesn't cut it. The movement penalty is too severe, now that you cannot combo it anymore. My suggestions for fixing it are these: (Just immunity to spells and no movement penalty.) (+40 armor instead of +20) (scaling the movement penalty like Armor of Earth)

Is that why every group in DoA runs someone using this? 76.64.193.201 01:19, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think this skill will ever be useful for PvP. Self defense elite. --TimeToGetIntense 02:17, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I would totally use it on my Earth Elementalist, if it didn't had such a rediculous movement penalty. And yes, you can use it to tank in some PvE. The point is that I would like it to be useful in OTHER places as well. You'll get ripped to shreds if you use this in PvP, which seems odd as it was meant to IMPROVE your defense. Nicky Silverstar 15:11, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't give this a major boost, since spell resistance is effective enough, and there are still good earth defense skills to mix this with. What I would do is reduce the recharge time to 20 seconds, and remove the movement penalty, 20 armor definetly isn't what it used to be, and nor are target spells, the movement penalty needs to go.--BahamutKaiser 23:04, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Or maybe reduced...Nicky Silverstar 07:55, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

No, the movement penalty is completely unacceptable when 20 armor is a run of the mill effect, the armor is almost worthless with the typical skills used with it to increase armor, or the general spread of armor boosting effects.--BahamutKaiser 03:31, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

What might work though, is instead of making it counter ALL spells, just give spells targetted at you 50%-75% chance to fail. That would make it a multi-purpose defensive skill, instead of a tank/farm-only skill. Nicky Silverstar 08:05, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

It already only prevents targeted spells as far as I know. Even than Chilblains could remove it with AoE effect, and now with Attacks from Assassin and Dervish which can remove enchantments without casting a spell, it is far less potent than what it used to be.

Alot of Prophecies abilities are totally dated, they need to be rebalanced in light of their vulnerability and new mechanics.--BahamutKaiser 02:13, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Stone Sheath

I can't think of a single use for this ability. I can't even figure out what this ability was designed for. Buff plz. Riotgear 04:38, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

The lack of criticals does lower enemy attacks by a load of damage. However, this is still to narrow an application to bring it as an elite. So I'd suggest to add a negative effect against casters. Reduces casting time by 25% or something like that. Maybe even skill activation time, but that may be too heavy... --Ineluki 13:37, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

This skill also takes a shit all over necromancer orders builds, but again, still too narrow of a focus to be elite worthy, in fact, too narrow to be a viable normal. --Ckal Ktak 20:10, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

IMHO this skill is beyond all saving. I wouldn 't use this skill if it had the same effect in the radar range. Instead i would suggest this skill goes through a functionality change. Maybe make it an elite version of CONJURE EARTH wich i have been waiting for since the dawn of guildwars. Maybe just same dammage as other conjures etc, only let it give a knockdown to foes that are running, and let it end if a knockdown was given, lower duration to like 1 for every seond in earth magic. Cast energy and recharge can be kept. 84.192.118.21 07:17, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

What about a little change/dmg buff ? Stone Sheath: For 10...25 seconds, attacks made by target foe and all nearby foes deal earth damage and cannot cause a critical hit. Target foe and all nearby foes take 1...7 more damage when hit by earth damage. 10 August 2007 (UTC)

The "cannot cause a critical hit" is a messed up effect. I would consider removing that entire concept and making it "For X seconds, target foe and all adjacent foes deal X..X less damage and suffer from weakness for X..X seconds every time they land a critical hit. When Stone Sheath ends on a foe, they are struck for X..X earth damage. 74.14.106.67 01:56, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I second that. Making the skill cause weakness unconditionally is EXACTlY what Earth needs. Even with a high recharged and casting cost, it would be very useful. Nicky Silverstar 14:00, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Use it with Geomancer armor and things that make you have more armor against Earth Damage...--§ Eloc § 16:05, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Then you use Stone Striker...--Deathwing 16:22, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

This is such a niche skill, I really don't think it can be buffed that successfully. It's the singular hex in the earth line (yes there are others but their uses are too different to put them together), so it would need aggressive cast-times and recharges to allow for a reasonable amount of effectiveness (read as 5..15 d, 10-12 recharge). Secondly it's effect isn't really good enough. If this affected all damage, then it would actually be very strong (potentially too strong). When I say all damage, I mean everything from armour ignoring skill damage to untyped stuff. Sounds mental and potentially game-breaking but it could work out.

Failing that interesting but bizarre idea, it could potentially reduce damage based on a percentage value 5-30% damage reduction or something.

Or just follow Nicky and anon's suggestion and make it inflict weakness on earth damage or something. Less useful but more fun for Earth guys ;) Fro 20:04, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I hardly call that less useful, Earth can use something that can apply weakness unconditionally...Nicky Silverstar 08:30, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

This has a really narrow application. It does reduce loads of physical damage, work together with elemental and earth armor, and offer a few other benifits, but unless another skill which greatly benifits from elemental or earth damage is introduced, it really isn't helpful. This would be particularly useful if something like Ward Against Elements was boosted to offer really potent elemental damage reduction, beyond what we can get from a simple armor boost, than you could convert the foes damage to earth and reduce the damage even more with WAE.

Some other changes to make it more solid would be to increase the hex to area, reduce the recharge to 10 seconds, and reduce the duration to 20 seconds. It is a 5 energy hex, being more frequent will make it much more difficult to counter.

Boosting a few other skills would be good too, like making Elemental Flame worth a crap, they could change it to cost more, go AoE and cause burning wile any elemental hex is applied to them. This really needs some synergized benifit for earth damage transformation to be significant.--BahamutKaiser 04:57, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

This skill really really really needs to be changed in order to be useful. It is like Otyugh's Cry used to, only before the changer, Otyugh's Cry was more useful than this thing is. This thing isn't even worth a normal skill slot, let a lone an Elite slot. Nicky Silverstar 19:27, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Currently this skill IS useless, i think it was intended to be used against the huge influx of sins, but there is much better ways to deal with them then this was able to do. This skill as a whole needs changing. My suggestion - "Elite Hex Spell. For 5...11...15 seconds, attacks made by target foe deal earth damage. Whenever target foe causes earth damage all nearby allies of that foe takes 4...10...14 earth damage. When Stone Sheath ends target foe and all nearby foes suffer from weakness for 10 seconds." OblivionDanny 13:32, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

ANY change would be nice. Nicky Silverstar 08:02, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, it could hardly get worse.12.240.16.28 08:12, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Reduce recharge to 1 second. Instant cover hex that screws over sins. Antiarchangel 17:28, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

If the skill doesn't get a rework, making this effect foes in the area of the target instead of nearby and a 10r would make this slightly more useful. It's a very niche skill and not very threating so it should be easier to apply to validate it's elite status. --Rururrur 05:59, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Currently the skill is about as useful as Greater Conflag. So yeah, that's bad. How about making it a 'target other ally' enchantment which works in the same way like the old conjures? Would obviously need a numerical fix (maybe 10 energy, 20 recharge?) and possibly add less damage than the normal Conjures.Akirai Annuvil 15:46, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

If it takes this long to change such an obviously underpowered skill, then there must be a super combo with it that I am missing. Otherwise, I fail to see why I would choose this over the other Earth elites...Nicky Silverstar 21:48, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I would like to see this turned into a useful elite. 87.189.251.211 00:30, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I made a typing error. I meant to write: why I should choose it over any other skill, not just Earth elites... Nicky Silverstar 19:30, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Right now, it's pretty competitive with an empty skill slot. Seriously, this is one of those skills that makes me feel bad for the monsters -- Imagine Joknang Earthturner and The Drought hanging around at the NF bosses Christmas party, that has to be embarrassing. At least Valetudo Rubor has the sense to drop a Greater Conflagration and walk away from it -- he doesn't have to carry it around as a constant reminder.

Now I know why it hasn't been changed yet. The Drought makes Izzy wait until after christmas! Nicky Silverstar 12:17, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Ward Against Foes

Add if any foe is not moving inside of ward, foe takes 8-25 damage per sec. ashesfalldown 11/16/07

Euhm...care to explain why? Nicky Silverstar 07:47, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Shadow step and knockdowns don't make this ward very useful, this way atleast if you're getting attacked inside you're damaging them back. Another Ele could bring Meteor Shower and cause knockdowns and enemies inside will take that damage and this ward damage. Just a idea, atm this ward don't get much use. --Ashesfalldown 03:17, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

It gets plenty of use in PvP. Believe me, if you've ever been a warrior trying to catch a kiting monk that keeps running through one of these wards, the last thing you'll want is to be trapped in one with Wanderlust sitting next to you, or be stuck in a meteor shower at the same time. Very bad idea. There's nothing wrong with this skill. In fact, it's one of the few skills that is perfectly balanced. It creates utility by recognizing placement and your game situation. Its functionality increases with player skill. --Reklaw 07:20, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, anyone standing in such a ward as this is free to avoid all melee pressure, unlike ward against melee, there is little that a warrior/dervish/assassin can actually do to counter this (the former can be sundered with blockproof skills). It can be used to jam up chokepoints, and if you catch someone in it and then start DoT Nuking them, they have no choice but to slowly wander out, making them a rip target for bull's strike or whatnot, and it's not as if a monk can remove this snare is it? --Ckal Ktak 23:29, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I see. I have to agree with Ckal though...it seems fine without the damage to me. Nicky Silverstar 20:49, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Ward Against Melee

I mainly post this to fufill a prediction of this skill appearing here very soon, but also because it never was overpowered. What it DID do was give Earth Elementalists something uniquely useful to add to a party. With this skill nerfed and issues like Churning Earth's casting time, Ward Against Elements and Stone Sheath still unfixed, I find it harder and harder to get in any PUG, be it PvE or PvP. I like Earth, but the problems it has aren't the damage. Ward Against Melee only ever defended against melee. Aegis and several stances did its job a whole lot better, vs ranged as well. Nicky Silverstar 21:53, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

That arguement isn't very legitimate, Ward Against melee has a good effect radius, lasts as good as 20 seconds and can be reapplied repeatedly. Aegis offers 10 seconds against all physical every 30 seconds and stances are single unit only. It also cannot be removed like aegis and stances.

This is a highly functional skill, the lack of additional effective wards is really more valid. This is a classic case of a very effective specific counter, which is good enough to shut down most melee presure. Probably it's only disability is the commonality of unblockable features added to the game, perhaps justifying a slightly lower cost, but I wouldn't consider it. If Dervish regained their powerful AoE attack function, the combination of group melee damage and easy enchantment removal would make this a serious advantage.--BahamutKaiser 04:22, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Glyph of Lesser Energy and it's a free 21 second immunity to melee pressure. I'm failing to see the underpowered part. -Auron 04:41, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I hate when people exagerate, one calls it worse than aegis and the other calls it immunity... Attack rate and damage modifiers still yeild 50% effectiveness, though using attack skills is a gamble.--BahamutKaiser 04:50, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

It is nothing less than immunity to melee pressure. A warrior missing half the time isn't pressuring. -Auron 05:53, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

After some thought I came to the realization that Ward Against Melee's change is actually quite brilliant. It basically nerfs it for every profession except for the Elementalist, both in duration and in cost. Since many Elementalists combine it with Glyph of Lesser Energy anyway, it may even be considered a buf when combined with both the glyph and Earth Attunement. My earlier reaction was a bit too emotional, as my favorite attributes always tend to be the less powerful ones, and any nerf to them always seems harsh. My apologies for the inconveniance and I'll try to restrain myself from posting without (much) thinking in the future. It is a nice trick you pulled Izzy, and I compliment you on that one (and me getting all worked up about must be a nice bonus right?) Nicky Silverstar 13:13, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

The change was simply to give it exactly the same stats as Ward Against Elements, arguably where it should have been in the first place. And I'm surprised no-one has mentioned defensive anthem yet for comparison, there's a reason why Anthem is elite, and that is unstrippability, which counts for a LOT. --Ckal Ktak 13:28, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I have always considered the fact that it DOESN'T BLOCK RANGED ATTACKS to make it vastly inferior to both Defensive Anthem and Aegis. Really, I keep telling people that Ward Against Melee doesn't counter everything over and over again. Stop forgetting that small but important difference just because it is convienient for you. It does not block ranged damage at all, including the very important interrupt ranger attacks. Stop comparing this to anthem, WAM is not nearly as powerful. Nicky Silverstar 12:11, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

This is much more maintainable than Aegis and Defensive, which makes it far better against the most powerful damage-dealing classes in the game. Armond 20:28, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

You forgot this damage dealer and this interrupter, who both happen to be very strong versus spellcasters. 1 extra second on wards would absolutely kill the skills completely, in a time when they're needed, make a whole attribute usable in PvP and (might I add) are not overpowered! Because of its narrow focus, it can be countered easily too. If it bothers you so much, bring other damage dealers (I'd rather have an Elementalist doing less damage than a warrior doing no damage), use anti-block skills (they do exist and several are quite playable in a non-tunnel vision way) or find a way around the ward (it is easy to chase people out of them). The only valid point I have heard so far for a Ward Against Melee-nerf is: OMG, MY SUPERUBERPOWERATTACK GOT BLOCKED! I AM TOO LAZY TO BRING ANTI-BLOCK SKILLS, SO NEEEEEEEERRRRRRRFFFF! Nicky Silverstar 07:47, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Theres barely ANY anti block skills. and they mostly have long recharges for a few skill attacks.68.20.211.243 22:57, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

There are a lot of skills that cannot be blocked, even quite a few attack skills that cannot be blocked. Personally, I don't have anything to complain about either the cost, the recharge or the damage boost of Soldier's Strike (which happens to combo very well) and you'll do more damage with a weak unblockable attack than a strong blocked attack. Nicky Silverstar 22:00, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

All the unblockable attacks I can think of off the top of my head suck. Chasing people out of wards doesn't work; any half-smart player will kite within the ward. (I can run around and avoid damage and still have a block chance, or I can run around without the block chance. Hmm...) WaM just contributes to blockway, which is to say, WaM + Aegis + etc, can't land any sort of attack. Essentially, what it boils down to is, this skill is so good, you need to find an excuse to not bring it. (And how does ward melee deal with rangers and paragons, again? It's kinda, you know, ward melee.) Armond 10:08, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

That was exactly my point Armond, it doesn't deal with them at all. So while Aegis will protect the user from interrupts, WaM will do no such thing. It is a good counter vs melee, but it is ALLOWED to be that strong, since it blocks against melee and nothing more. And of course the unblockable attacks suck compared to other attacks, that is because they're unblockable.

To sum it up: I refuse to let Ward Against Melee be nerfed because all those thick headed warriors cannot be bothered to think beyond the damage number of their skills. Ward Against Melee is fine, it always was fine and at 15 energy, it will never be overpowered. Just bring something other that the metagame warrior or dervish. Bring a paragon. Bring unblockable skills. Bring casters. They do exist, they won't be bothered by the ward and because they can damage something while you cannot, their DPS will also be higher than your warrior's. And with a good AoE, you can even chase them out of the ward... Nicky Silverstar 20:47, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

You forgot one Nicky, bring an interrupt. One second cast time that is used religiously on it's 20 second recharge. Any decent ranger or mesmer will be ready for it. --Rururrur 09:34, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Ranger DPS is shit, and ranger interrupts are countered by canceling. Paragon DPS is admittedly high, but warrior and dervish DPS is far more significant (due in no small part to the fact that you're not likely to encounter more than one paragon in a team, if any, in your average GvG). Armond 11:59, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Aegis can block a Broad Head Arrow that is fired at you while you're casting something, Ward Against Melee cannot. That should count for a lot, if the lack of mobility, interrupt protection and ranged damage don't count for anything at all to you. And don't forget condition spreading rangers. And spirits. And in AB en PvE: minions. And just because a ranger may not do much damage, doesn't mean he does NO damage. Nicky Silverstar 22:38, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Glowstone, Ebon Hawk & Stoning

Air gets blind, fire gets burning and water gets slowing hexes. Not only are those effects way more powerful than weakness, they're also far easier to apply (and because of that, few teammembers will bring weakness for the Earth Elementalist to work with). Steam got a boost in damage, because it's conditional effect was too conditional, and it used burning, which is used by a lot of players. These skills deserve a boost too. Ebon Hawk's casting time can be lowered to 1 second, just to make the most important skill of the combo also be the one that's the easiest to interrupt. Stoning's well priced if you would get the effect every time, but you don't, so it is overpriced (or its damage could be increased slightly). Glowstone can also use a damage boost, simply because it isn't worth it unless you have weakness, which you cannot really apply...see where I am going with this? Like the suggestion above, you could also change Stone Sheath to apply weakness (and actually do something). This is just my opinion, but it would be really cool if Earth could be the weakness element. It would really fit the idea behind the attribute and weakness in itself isn't really powerful in itself, so I personally really don't see why it should be that hard to apply. Nicky Silverstar 19:15, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree the weakening chain should be buffed. Mistress of Trade 19:19, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

My ele's still in pre, so I can't really talk, but my plan was to use Enervating Charge instead of Ebon Hawk, even with a low spec. Now what does that say about earth magic...? Armond 20:06, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

That you need to double spec just to make Earth viable? Show me a warrior or dervish that has to double spec simply to use their weapon? Nicky Silverstar 09:19, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

That, and Earth's current ways of applying weakness suck. Armond 19:48, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I just played with this and it doesn't trigger stoning, it's probably due to the way Stoning was coded, I'll see if I can fix this as I think it would be a fun combo. ~Izzy @-'---- 01:04, 25 July 2007 (UTC) That small alteration to Ward of Weariness would make all the difference...let Stoning/Glowstone apply weakness first and then get their effect. Please Izzy? You said you'd look into it...pretty please? ;-) Nicky Silverstar 14:34, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Another way to buff the weakness chain might be to lower the casting time of Ebon Hawk to 1 second just so it won't be so susceptable to interrupts anymore. That would also make the chain easier to get off...I am whining now, aren't I? Sorry about that... Nicky Silverstar 08:35, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Ward of Weakness

I like the skill a lot, but I get the feeling that it is a bot unpractical to work with (I know it was meant that way, but still...). Just to see what other people think of it, I am suggesting the following change: Each second, foes within Ward of Weakness suffer from weakness for 1...3 seconds. That would still be less powerful than Ward Against Melee (since is doesn't block attacks, but merely reduces it's base damage). The long duration of weakness is a bit pointless in both PvE (where the foe dies to soon) or in PvP (where it would just get removed). Basically, it would just free the hands of the caster to do other things. Another useful buff could be the synergy with stoning/glowstone suggestion that Izzy made so long ago. What do you guys think of this? Nicky Silverstar 07:58, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

yah, let it pulse out weakness, the recharge of this skill kills it anyway. A ward that only cause weakness wont help anywhere as there are far better ways to do just that, better ways to do aoe weakness, and much better conditions to inflict. This skill needs a rework, reducing the recharge would only make someone casting this everywhere, which isnt helping. Maybe make it like a well that everyone in it is weakned and suffer degeneration or something. Maybe add bleeding whenever they take elemental damage. --Cursed Angel 20:49, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Weakness is excellent in PvE, since a lot more of the damage you recieve is from the basic attack damage, which does scale down to a much more managable level with weakness. And in organised PvP, weakness doesn't tend to get removed quickly because it's so easy to spread everywhere, overloading the monk's work, who'd sooner prioritise other conditions. --Ckal Ktak 15:30, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

In PvP, you don't have a choice which condition you're taking care of - you're either nuking one condition or all of them. The major problem with weakness is its clear inferiority to Blind - what are you going to take, a spike that does 33% normal damage, or a spike that has a 30% chance of any one thing to hit (and a .1% chance of going through entirely)? If the spike's only evisc-executioner's instead of evisc-critical-executioner's, you're down to a 20% chance of either hitting and a 1% chance of both hitting. Blind also makes it far harder for the warriors to gain adrenaline. And what does weakness do? It... gives -1 to all attributes. Because I really care about that. :/ The only serious use I can think of for weakness is to throw on a warrior when your blind skill is recharging.

The most devastating effect weakness will have will be killing a breakpoint (such as on Shield of Absorption). But when I, personally, prot, I run around with 13 11 11, so I'm not getting the 7 seconds there anyway. And, for the most part, you put attributes a point higher than the breakpoint anyway - if you even worry about running into weakness.

That said, I disagree with pulsing. It seems to me that you could just drop it and get a free, unstoppable, unremovable AoE DoT weakness. If, however, we're looking for "alternate pulsing ideas", I'd vote for every four seconds, foes suffer from weakness for 1..4 seconds (at the most). Armond 21:28, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Weakness is very much designed as inferior to other conditions, notably blindness, but they've balanced that by allowing you to throw it around like water (compare enfeeble to blinding flash if you will). I mean, if this ward did virtually any other condition for this duration (except maybe bleeding), then it would be heralded as wtfpwn when it came to defense/pressure. The thing about this skill is trying to get enough elemental damage going about in it at the right time to weaken foes in it as needed. Has anyone tested this skill with blinding surge to see which condition covers which? --Ckal Ktak 22:49, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Weakness is easy to spread for anything but Earth Magic, and Earth Magic relies on weakness. That is the problem. Also, when you use your elemental damage on the warrior next to you to protect yourself, then you're basically wasting damage because of his high armor. The only thing that you wouldn't be 'wasting' damage on would be the assassin, but he is hardly affected by weakness. Basically, what I am saying is: why is it so hard for Earth Magic to apply weakness, when it is so vital for some skills? With a good weakness applying skill like Enervating Charge, Earth would become competitive, but now, it is just inferior to all the other attributes. Nicky Silverstar 07:56, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, there's nothing stopping you wanding them (Apart from maybe Shock), most caster weapons have elemental damage by default. --Ckal Ktak 08:06, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

You're missing my point: You need to perform 2 actions to get the target weakened, while the other attributes just need 1 action to cause their more powerful burning, blindness or snaring applied. This really matters for the 'glowing' skills. It makes the combo flawed. Automatic weakness or weakness that gets applied 'before the hit' so Glowstone and Stoning get their effect the first hit (without it, they're underpowered, with it, they're decent) would help the combo a lot. Or make Ebon Hawk cause weakness all the time. That would help a otherwise underpowered combo. Nicky Silverstar 20:35, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Energy Storage

Ether Prism

So underpowered I don't even have a comment about it :P - Tulen elementti (talk) 18:50, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't necessarily call it underpowered. At high spec it's e-gain is incredible. what kills this is how clunky it is to use. To get anything 'real' out of this you need to break your flow a lot to recharge energy, which can really be off-putting and wreck your game. You also need to do this quite a lot and the 2 second cast makes this prone to interruption unless you take something like Glyph of Concentration. Then there's the fact that you can't effectively use exhaustion spells with this thing. I really don't like that. However despite all of this and despite the fact that Glyph of Lesser Energy completely over-shadows this skill, it's the break point of 12 E-storage needed to actually make this worthwhile, that really wrecks Ether Prism builds. It really has very little value on most bars. --Fro 20:35, 13 July 2007.

I've moved so much away from Elite energy managment on Ele's that there are a number of out of date skills here, I'm not sure where their place lies, But Ether Renewal, Ether Prodigy, also fall into this category, they are weak but if I increase them they would have to be so much better then Glyph of Lesser energy, and I just don't see what your going power with them. ~Izzy @-'----

Can I toss in a tongue-in-cheek "bring back Heal Party" in here? :P (Aiiane - talk - contribs) 00:29, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

You know I'm really suprized how many teams like using LoD over heal party, I think it's for more offensive diversity and I think people are just running aegis instead, but I loved having heal party on a non monk to deal with pressure. ~Izzy @-'----

Mending Touch + Distracting Shot. Also, once you put LoD in a build Heal Party becomes weak. -Ensign 06:04, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah it's true, I guess part of me misses the old Epod bars as they could jump between Utility, damage, and Healing to cover what ever you needed at the time. ~Izzy @-'---- 20:12, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Maybe you could do something like that with Mind Blast. That skill gives you SO much energy, but there's really nothing worth spending it on. You're better off having a Mesmer or Ranger at stand than a Fire Ele (even if your Ele is good at getting multiple people in AoE) just for the utility. --TimeToGetIntense 22:07, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

It's not anything wrong with Ether Prodigy, the power level on that skill is still fine. It's that the metagame has shifted enough that the old utility you were powering out with it is no longer relevant. LoD obsolesced Heal Party for a bunch of different reasons. Mending Touch and increased condition turnover in Nightfall changed blind from a tactical condition to one that has to be brute forced to be effective. Gale got wrecked something fierce. On top of that, increased offensive options left the 5-tool Elementalist unable to defend the base effectively, even 1v1. Combine that with real non-elite energy options and other attractive elites to use, and it just made sense to refine the old 5-tool Eles into modern 3-tool Eles with a bit more oomph in the places that matter. -Ensign 11:46, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I find the biggest flaw of Ether Prism is the breakpoint - 12 Energy Storage for 2. Although, at this point reducing the breakpoint to 10 or 9 is kind of pointless as non-elite energy management is so effective that you don't need something as cumbersome as this to power your bars. --Tensei 18:39, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

A much more dangerous aspect of this skill is its 2 second casting time. Witout a faster cast, the user risks having wasted 25 Energy for nothing. If this skill wants to be kept like this and still see even minimal use, the casting time should be reduced to as low as 1/4 second. 76.64.193.201 01:22, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree this skill is backwards--the time I need energy is when I am low and this skill does not allow for that...you have to have a lot of energy to benefit from it. It has more disadvantages than advantages: 1) it's not a proper elite, 2) it has a whopping 25 to use, 3) a 2 second cast time, 4) you need a lot of energy in your pool when activated to receive the benefit. With all those interrupts out there, this skill does not stand a chance. Like you said, if it gets interrupted, you just lost 25 energy and then cant use this skill the way it should cause now you don't have the energy to benefit from it. The cast time on this really needs to be a fraction and you can keep the 25 cost as long as you do something about this skill so it can be used when low on energy. ETHER PRISM. Elite Spell. 25/.25/10 Gain 0...3...4 Energy for each point you have in Energy Storage. So at 13 Energy Storage (3 energy for each point in Energy Storage), Ether Prism will gross me 39 but net me 14 energy at the cost of spending 25. Atrophy necros can have a field day with this one --Phoenix Locklear 14:05, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Why not just reduce the cost to 15 energy? I mean, what's the maximum amount of energy you can gain from this? Using it at full energy profits nothing, and using it with low energy defeats it. It is a touchy energy management skill which will fail if you let your energy run out, or if it gets destroyed, and overfills if you use it to early, meaning you don't really gain much energy. For a skill which only outperforms in very circumstancial and careful situations, it shouldn't be anchored with maximum failure liability and comparable output to other simple energy output means. Considering the value of elite spells and attacks available, a spell which offers energy in exchange for an elite on elementist should be a well, not algebra.--BahamutKaiser 21:34, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

That really isn't the problem with this. Making it cheaper doesn't change the fact that it's interrupt-bait, requires 12 E-storage, and that GoLE kicks it's behind with little effort. This really needs to find a new job... Fro 19:27, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Elementist isn't suppose to be immune to interruption, their abilities are ment to be powerful and liable to prevention. At 15 energy cost you can use it at 40 energy and raise your energy back to 75, none wasted. And using it at anything over 30 energy will still a competative amount of energy. The ability to get back 35 energy every 12 seconds is far more energy twice as often as most other professions energy management skills, and since other other dozen energy management alternatives for elementist already cover plenty of options, having this very effective and very original means of energy management is acceptable.

Besides, there are plenty of spells which can be cast in preperation and out of harms way which are very effective that would highly benifit from this no matter how risky the interruption is.--BahamutKaiser 21:13, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

If you ever get camped by a good ranger or mesmer your in trouble as it is, while this skill becomes a dead slot. Against semi-competent interrupters, your generally ok... But this skill is still a dead slot. See where I'm going with this? Fro 21:47, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Elementist is suppose to be vulnerable to those things...... balance is not about trying to make everything uber, the highest energy return skill in Elementist arsenal is not suppose to be safe. It better be useless if a foe brings interrupt skills to counter abilities naturally vulnerable on elementist, that is the way it belongs.--BahamutKaiser 03:26, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Again our values are very different. If this skill becomes useless when it matters, it sucks. 10 less energy doesn't change that... Well whatever. The skill is somewhat pointless now anyway. Fro 12:55, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Ether Renewal

can't really find an effective use for this one. - Skakid9090 20:01, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

It was nerfed a long time ago because it was abused with Zealot's Fire. --TimeToGetIntense 21:36, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

i know, that doesn't mean it shouldnt be buffed to re-usability though... - Skakid9090 21:45, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I think Zealot's Fire should be nerfed and Ether Renewal should be buffed. I'm 100% convinced that Zealot's Fire shouldn't be viable unless it sees a total rework. --TimeToGetIntense 00:35, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I've been thinking how to make this skill viable again. It was first nerfed after being abused with the original version of draw conditions, because it had no cast time. You could hammer on Draw as fast as possible, giving you crazy Zealot's Fire spammability, and gain energy all the while. Draw has since been fixed. Here's my take on the skill: 5/1/20 "For 10 seconds, whenever you cast a spell, you gain 1..3..4 Energy (Maximum 1..5..6) and 5..20 Health for each enchantment on you." The current specs mean that it's in a pretty good place at 9 or 10 energy storage, but caps out at 2 enchantments. --Skye Marin 03:38, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

7 seconds is too short, I always thought this skill is horrible :x

It seems that this skill is bad because the devs didn't come up with the idea of "(Maximum #...#)" until Factions. A lot of Prophecies skills are outdated. There's the skills that say too much, like what the condition they cause does or list all the conditions if it removes one. There's the concept of "50% failure if <att> is # or less" that they seemed to trash after Prophecies, since none of the newer skills have that. Finally, most Prophecies skills can be made balanced, or at least non-useless, if they change them to be like newer (i.e. Factions and Nightfall) skills. I mean with number caps and such. Likewise, some of the newer skills should use that whole "failure with # or less" stuff, but I digress. --Heelz 01:22, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I think this skills effect can potentially be great, its just the fact it has a 30 second recharge and a 7 second duration, this is what makes it bad. At least increase this to 15-20 seconds and it might get to see some uses. OblivionDanny 16:09, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

It's the energy part with enchantment stacks that really makes it overpowered when you think about it (if you gain energy instead of losing it then that is insanity). Maybe turn it into an Healing Hands/Zealot's Fire hybrid thing: "For 30 seconds, you gain 5...29 Health whenever you use a spell targeting a foe and lose 1 energy. When this enchantment ends you you gain 1...3 health for each point of energy you have". This way, it fits the name, since it is ether ---> renewal... (10 energy, 1 cast, 15 recharge). This positively cannot assume the same regeneration thing as Hexer's Vigor/Mystic Regeneration, since it is an elite. Alternately, instead of the heal at the end being based off energy (which I believe it should) you could have a flat heal like Blood Renewal/Aura of the Lich (40...160 and 50...202 respectively). --Life Infusion «T» 14:14, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Instead of a flat heal at the end, it could also be "You gain 5..29 health and an additional 5..29 health for each recharging spell". Kind of like Vow of Piety or Balthazar's Rage. If there is no end effect, it would be about the same as Vigorous Spirit, meaning it isn't worth taking. --Life Infusion «T» 14:28, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

I just looked at Vampiric Spirit. If you consider that most elementalist run about 8-10 energy storage if running one element and a secondary attribute, then even the suggestion I made above would make it really not elite worthy. The scaling on Vampiric Spirit is 5...41 health per spell with the limitation of it being life steal, which is better than healing except for the range limitation. Even using the Spirit Bond 40...88 would be kind of odd since at 8-9 energy storage you'd effectively get around 60 or so heal every time you cast a spell. Granted if you are spamming Flare/Stone Daggers you will have insane healing (with the malus of -1 energy every time).--Life Infusion «T» 14:35, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Fire Magic

Mind Burn

This skill has been underpowered from day one. The secondary effect (burning) is not worth the exhaustion. Burning is only worthwhile if you can continually reapply it, but exhaustion means that you can't spam, making it useless at the stand except as a spike assist. In a split it's completely overshadowed by Mind Shock. I'm talking about GvG here, but the same things that make it bad there make it bad almost everywhere else. I've never seen this skill used outside of RA. Suggestion: 5e 1s 8r, remove exhaustion. Straightforward "punch people in the face elite", useful to pressure with your team or to gank NPCs with Flame Djinn's Haste and some support skills. Damage-wise this is a fair amount weaker than pre-nerf searing flames, so I don't see how this would be overpowered.--Symbol 21:06, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I think the damage is about the same as pre-nerf SF though, but it recharges 4 times slower, so that's pretty irrelevant because it's more frontloaded, so better for spiking, still useful for pressure. Also, good for comboing with Incendiary Bonds and Liquid Flame for soloing someone who's overextended or whatever. Exhaustion really kills it though, can't keep a Mind Burn build going long term. --TimeToGetIntense 00:26, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I think removing exhaustion from this skill on a 1c you would have an insane amount of spike, the issue with Mind spells is they hit with two numbers, and that means it goes right through prot. Removing exhaustion from this skill would be extremely dangerous. ~Izzy @-'----

If that's the issue, you could always change it so that the damage doesn't come in two packets. --Symbol 01:03, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I think exhaustion is good on these spells. It's such a great mechanic for putting a leash around fundamentally over-powered skills. I agree with the others though, this doesn't provide much 'over-powered' incentive to incur exhaustion over. An energy rebate or better still, another condition (ala "You're All Alone!") to cover the burning might be interesting. Crippled would be my first choice. Even then, with the existence of Mending Touch... It's still can't compare to the majesty of Mind Shock but it would make it more attractive. Incidentally I feel Mind Freeze suffers a similar problem. 90% slow hex isn't that much better than 66%. At least not enough to warrant exhaustion, and using this over Icy Shackles. --Fro 01:38, 12 July 2007

I have to agree here, one of the fun things about the mind spells in my opinion is that the more you use them the less likely you are to meet the condition. Exhaustion is a tricky downside to balance thou because the first reaction is to remove it from a skill when the skill is underpowered. Reducing costs is always the easiest way to improve something but it's also the least interesting, when I look at skill changes I always look for better ways to increase the effect of skills to match the costs rather then the other way around. This allows for more diversity in cost vs Effect rather then every skill becoming 5e and 1c. ~Izzy @-'----

In which case all you have to do is over-power Mind Burn a bit then :) . Something that would be crushing if spammed in a make-believe 'world' free from exhaustion. You could just throw conditions at this thing. Would be interesting with fragility if this could add 3-4 conditions that last between 7-10 seconds. Burning, Crippled, Weakness, Blind? Overkill? Even a Draw would be painful on those. Fro 21:40, 17 July 2007

Why don't you make the burning some rediculous duration like 20 seconds? Or better yet, if you meet the condition, you deal the extra damage to all foes in earshot. --TimeToGetIntense 22:15, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

280HP loss through degen (burning alone) from a 5E spell? Don't think so... --  (CoRrRan / talk) 23:06, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Condition removal is so powerful that it wouldn't be too bad. --TimeToGetIntense 23:11, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Honestly, it wouldn't matter if it set someone on fire forever, because it'd just get removed. You make the burning last for more than 5 seconds or so and its an instant candidate for removal.--Symbol 00:05, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I know Condition removal is quite powerful, but it just doesn't make sense to rely on that to make sure that that much HP loss isn't reached. And playing devil's advocate here: PvE-wise this would be a serious imbalance due to most PvE groups not having too good a Condition removal. But then again, I don't care about PvE.

Nah, 280HP loss due to degen from only a 5E spell, I really and seriously doubt that would ever happen. --  (CoRrRan / talk) 23:16, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Toxic Chill, Reaper's Mark --TimeToGetIntense 00:29, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I think that a very long burn wouldn't be that bad actually. Something like 5..17..21 sec burning. Yes, it hurts a hell of a lot if there's no condition removal, but it's also exhaustion. You can't decide to spread that on their full team. In a split it might massively degen someone, but when you have alternatives like Mark of Rodgort->Mind Blast, where they basically have to remove MARK to get rid of the burning (and there's not nearly as much efficient hex removal as condition removal off monks) and Mind Blast doubles as a very strong emanagement elite, you need to have a very good reason to use Mind Burn over it. I think a longer burn could honestly make it see a bit more play because it could become a powerful skirmish skill. Patccmoi 16:16, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Everyone and their mother packs mending touch on splits. It doesn't seem very likely that the burn is going to last anywhere near its full duration. --Symbol 00:16, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

It would be useful against NPCs at least. I think it would be useful at stand though. It puts pressure on the enemy team to remove it. It wouldn't usually last long, but that's because it's a threat that needs to be handled. --TimeToGetIntense 00:27, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, it'd be good for ganking, but that's not a good enough reason to blow your elite, IMO. At the stand you're basically spending 5e + exhaustion and your elite slot to do something that your opponents can counter with a 5e removal- it forces them to remove it, until the ele has exhausted himself into uselessness. That's not a favorable tradeoff. If the exhaustion stays, mind burn is going to need a better effect than "super long burning". I can't think of what, besides AoE, but searing flames is already the AoE pressure elite in fire. --Symbol 05:12, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Which is essentially why I suggested throwing conditions at it. If the Burning and Snare are buried under Weakness and Blind, it combats the strength of Mending Touch while at the same time forcing a full removal. Those 4 conditions all offer great utility on their own if they don't get removed. Even if the durations are rather short, limited to something like 10 seconds, It would still be worth the elite when you also consider the damage. I guess the crippled could be replaced in the order by blindness to make it a stronger split skill. Fro 09:43, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah but that's so...random. Mind burn doing condition stacking? I think maybe a mild armor debuff in the form of a hex would be better, 20-30 seconds of -10 AL if you meet the condition, if we're going to go the route of adding additional effects. --Symbol 22:22, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Maybe that new Cracked Armor condition? --TimeToGetIntense 22:34, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Buff this skill plz, its absulutely horrible, ive only seen one human player ever use it. i dont think thats good. increase energy to 15 or 25 and recast to say but no exhaustion 68.226.80.7 03:25, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I personally like it at 5/1/5 with exhaustion. It just needs a more useful effect. Some kind of offensive utility... --TimeToGetIntense 02:07, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Mind Burn 5/1/5 Target foe and all adjacent (nearby?) foes are struck for 15..65 fire damage. If you have more Energy than target foe, that foe and all nearby (in the area?) foes take an additional 15..65 fire damage and are set on fire for 1..7 seconds. This spell causes Exhaustion. --Palebluedot 22:43, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

(reset)Just for the record, at 16 Fire Magic, this spell can potentially deal (63)+(63)+(7*14)=224 damage. Isn't that enough for only 5 energy? Not that I would take it over Obsidian Flame though...I just think it is more powerful than it seems. Nicky Silverstar 11:50, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, against 60AL, but who uses that? If I wanted single target spike damage, I'd be an aeromancer. --Ckal Ktak 12:32, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

It will still deal roughly 160 damage to armor 100 targets. And air isn't the only possible spike attribute... Nicky Silverstar 13:43, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah bcos people spike with vapor blade and mind burn all the time -Auron 13:46, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

This is an elite skill and should be given elite status. If you remove the exhaustion from Mind Burn, I don't see it out-doing a lightning hammer spike or obsidian flame spike. The burning doesn't multiply/stack and you have to have more energy than your target and targeting eles first aint such a good idea (even though the 2-hit packet helps against prot spirit, hell, maybe that's whats needed--something to make prot spirit not be the cure all spell for every situation especially against eles). Sure the burning helps but if the spike is intended to kill a target immediately with 5-6 eles using massive damage then burning is not the focus. It appears Izzy wants to increase the effect rather than adjust the associated cost of exhaustion; if so, then Mind Burn should have to pack one hell of a punch since you wont be able to use it often as a proper elite. Like you said, the more you use it, the less likely you will have more energy than your target. If I don't have more energy than my target, this skill is useless. If it is useless, my elite slot is wasted. 5/1/5 Target foe and foes in the area are struck for 63 fire damage. If you have more energy than target foe, that foe and foes in the area are struck for an additional 63 fire damage are suffer from Burning for 1...7 seconds. This spell causes exhaustion if the second effect is activated. Has to compete with its KD and 90% snare cousins too. Has to be to a point where one has to decide "should I use SF, SH, Mind Blast or Mind Burn." Either way you look at it, exhaustion should not be given if the second effect is not triggered. Whatever you decide Izzy, whether its removing exhaustion, increasing recharge or whatever, I am sure you won't disappoint. Remember, if I can't use an elite skill on a regular basis, then what is the point of bringing it? The only ones that use these elites are the imps...especially the ones in hard mode. Those imps are mad crazy... --Phoenix Locklear 16:38, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Maybe to enpower it a little, you can add an AoE effect to it. Elite Spell. Target foe takes 15...51...60 fire damage. If you have more Energy than target foe, that foe and foes adjacent to that foe take an additional 15...51...60 fire damage and is set on fire for 1...6...7 seconds. This Spell causes Exhaustion. Something along those lines. --(Problem. 01:58, 20 September 2007 (UTC))

That's the exact same thing I was going to say, make the secondary part effect AoE of at least adjacent if your have more energy. Fire is really ment to be a widespread damage attribute, the damage plus burning really only compare to Mind Shock in damage considering the defacto armor penetration offered, to really give Mind Burn it's Fire Attribute entitled effect, just add AoE, it woln't make it great, but it will make it reasonable.--BahamutKaiser 21:17, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Fire doesn't lack damage. To deal damage (aoe or otherwise) fire needs no assistance. What Fire lacks is utility. If your going to create an expensive elite skill, let it bolster what makes the line weak. People think I'm insane, but the condition stack of useful conditions (Blind, cripple, burning, cracked armour etc. obviously deep wound is out of the question ) just screams 'I fire-baby, now do more than just DD!' to me. More damage in fire for the price of exhaustion just seems like a waste... Fro 19:22, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Fires advantage is AoE, Airs advantage is armor penetration, Earths advantage is defense and Waters advantage is snares. In order for fire to practice it's advantage it offers AoE, and burning is the most effective degen condition, it works fast and hard and makes anything less than lightning condition removal pointless. AoE is what belongs on fire spells, and AoE is what's best to improve this.--BahamutKaiser 21:03, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

That's largely the point. Why use an exhausting elite skill for something your already good at? The answer is the reason this skill isn't used. Mind Blast will power all the AoE, and more importantly damage, you could ever want... Fro 21:42, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

....... Mind Blast doesn't burn, and using dual attunment with rodgorts is better than trying to use mindblast for energy. The value of all the original mind spells is in the dual damage which sheers through damage reduction capabilities, AoE damage and burning as a plus is just icing to make it cost worthy.--BahamutKaiser 03:19, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Well it's obvious we value very different things (for instance I feel reliance on Dual attunements is a major drawback and would never consider it for anything 'important')... Fro 12:53, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

"Value Different Things", don't make me laugh, two part damage application is what Izzy said it is effective for. If you disagree with him that's fine, but I'm only interested in rational ways to improve abilities, not preferances.--BahamutKaiser 03:24, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Eh? Who said anything about changing the double damage? That would be stupid. Grab a clue please... Fro 06:42, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I always was hoping this skill would be buffed. Against the other fire elites this skill cant hold its own. Against searing flames this skill is useless. both cost 15 energy( mind burn is 5 + 10 from exhaustion) and searing flames puts the same duration of burning unconditionally,quick recharge, and AOE burning/dmg. you could argue energy management but with searing flames is quite manageable with glowing gaze + attunement. With that you can spam searing flames and dump alot of AoE pressure easily. Mind burn cant come close to the dmg output of SF especially since mindburns main dmg output is conditional. As for mind burn going through prot getting hit with the extra 60 dmg doesnt really warrant exhaustion. should you die and be rezzed with only 25% energy than bam your elite is reduced to Flare that causes exhaustion. My idea for a buff would be increase the dmg for this skill so it could actually be used for a spike since its not spammable anyway. depending on dmg increase recharge could be longer. - --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:97.89.190.23 .

Fire Storm, Breath of Fire

I'm really curious to know why these skills consistently get left with a 30 recharge while multiple buffs have happened to everything else about them. I'd easily trade those damage buffs for a halved recharge.--Mysterial 22:30, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Mainly because you tend to see 20 different spots of AoE around a map and its really painful and annoying and destroys any prospect of positioning. I think these 2 skills are pretty balanced as they stand, especially considering the raw power of AoE eles come Nightfall, especially in tight spaces like are often found in HA, etc. Samcobra

How does having AoE that makes you move around a bit (like, say, a Warrior on your tail) "destroy any prospect of positioning"? And in what gametype is there that much DOTAoE anyway? Even in HA I'd take the three Heats at most - there is absolutely no reason to take these weaker versions for a paltry 5 or 10 energy savings.--Mysterial 17:12, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Buffing Fire Storm anymore will be too ridiculous come VoD should a bodyguard still live. --Tensei 22:41, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Make Firestorm earshot range, booyah. --Deathwing 23:10, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

I think these two skills should have a 1 second cast time. I'd use them to stack on one of the more powerful DOTAOEs if they casted quickly enough. Otherwise, the small range plus the 2 second cast means you'll never stack them on anything unless you get lucky with half cast time mod, and they are very weak on their own. Halving recharge might be good too, but they are so tiny that I doubt they'd be worth using. Also, Fire Magic needs some reason to be used besides damage... like some sort of utility. Until Fire Magic has utility, it won't be good in GvG aside from when overpowered damage builds appear like Searing Flames. --TimeToGetIntense 22:56, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree on the 1 second cast time -- a skill as harmless as breath of fire, especially, shouldn't take as long to cast as orb. Fire Magic doesn't really need utility though; there are lots of fire eles around who spec /monk or /mes for utility.

I don't think pure damage is appealing in a caster attribute. In my experience, Fire Magic has been either underpowered or overpowered but never just right. The same seems to be true for Channeling Magic and Smiting Prayers. That's why I'm against pure damage lines. If they do enough damage they get abused because the playstyle is too simple. It's just "I have more damage than you have defense." --TimeToGetIntense 12:27, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

While I certainly wouldn't oppose Fire Magic getting some decent offensive utility, I don't think that statement is entirely true for AoE, provided it's on a reasonable recharge, because its effectiveness is going to depend heavily on getting targets in range and taking advantage. Unfortunately a lot of them either have too long recharges to be effective at all or so short recharges that they become mindless spam.--Mysterial 03:48, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I meant that the attribute needs something more than damage in addition to effective AoE skills. By the way, I have an idea for Breath of Fire... 5e/1c/2r - Spell. Create Breath of Fire at target foe's current location. For 5 seconds, foes adjacent to that location are struck for 10...34...40 fire damage each second. This spell causes Exhaustion.

XD i really like that buff, spamming breath of fire, at the cost of killing your own energy. Echo-breath anyone? 74.134.153.177 23:48, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Make Fire Storm better! --§ Eloc §

Make Hamstring + Fire Storm better! --Tankity Tank 08:10, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

(reset)They're already very good compared to all the Earth AoE spells...Nicky Silverstar 15:46, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Well duh, Earth Magic isn't meant for high damage like Fire Magic is.--§ Eloc § 23:49, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

What I meant is, that with the same damage/duration/casting time, Earh spells cost significantly more energy. And Earth can deal out damage just fine, thank you.Nicky Silverstar 06:44, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

The whole system of AoE frequency and spread is broken, but I'm not going to break it down into 8 paragraphs... again, the costs, frequency, damage and spread needs to be seriously redeveloped. The whole system is denying the importance and need for locational damage, and relativity between cost, damage and frequency. These can't remain limited based on widespread failure, these cannot be left out of the balance against locational support, and these elementist abilities can lead the way so GW can continue to prosper, the change starts here.--BahamutKaiser 01:56, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd just like to say that you have spread your Pro-AoE campaign across a LOT of pages. Would just like to say congratulations. --Deathwing 02:08, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, it is a fundimental flaw which is suppressing abilities and gameplay across the board.--BahamutKaiser 02:37, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Double Dragon

The exhaustion was removed from this skill but at adjacent range and 15energy/30recharge this skill is still inferior to the non-elite inferno, which costs and recharges in 10, and does more damage per points in fire. Its also hardhaving someone stay in adjacent range for two seconds. It might also be nice to see it cause a knockdown or maybe some burning.

I think they should've cut the recharge down instead of removing the exhaustion. How about this: "10/.75/3 Elite Hex Spell. All adjacent foes are struck for 7..112 fire damage. After 3 seconds, those foes are struck for an additional 15..75 fire damage and set on fire for 1..5 seconds. This Spell causes Exhaustion." Remove the stupid long aftercast, too (don't know why they still have that on anything) --Mysterial 04:33, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

That sounds cool. I think another interesting rework would be to make it a self enchantment, like Flame Djinn's Haste. That way, it wouldn't have the aftercast (which pretty much kills this spell), and you would be able to get people even if they move a little bit out of the way. --72.194.109.3 05:02, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I like the self enchant idea. "10/.75/10 Elite Enchantment Spell. All adjacent foes are struck for 7...112 fire damage. For 5 seconds adjacent foes are struck for 5...50 fire damage each second." Sort of a mobile elite PbAoE. --Symbol 22:41, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

My thought of this skill is that it is a inferior fire version of Shockwave with higher energy cost, more recharge time, smaller range. Sure damage potential of this skill is greater than shockwave but after using this skill once your opponent will avoid staying adjacent to you for even a second let alone two. --Shadetz X 21:45, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Recharge needs reducing and area of effect definitely needs to be bigger than adjacent...if you can adjust those, you can keep the 15 cost. Inferno out performs this and has to compete with the protective spirit bypass and in-the-area range of Shockwave (10/.75/15) and Star Burst (5/.75/10) which follows targets and has nearby range. 15/.75/20 For two seconds, foes in the area to this location are struck for 7...119 fire damage each second. --Phoenix Locklear 17:22, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I think this is a joke on more levels than I want to discuss. Adjacent damage over time is really lame, particularly for an elite. Even at 3/4 cast time, the foe can walk away long before the second wave and will have plenty of time to avoid repeated uses unless snares are used, snares conveniently placed in other elements. It should really be nearby, and recharge at 15 seconds, in comparison it has twice the potency of Flame Burst, making it elite, wile having 3 times the recast, causing less damage over time, and not having the option of dual attunments to make it basically free like Flame Burst.

I think one of the major things that needs to be considered with every attack spell elite is how a build with this elite compares to a build with an assortment of normal spells from that attribute with dual attunement. Dual Attunement even makes Rodgorts a competator with Searing Flame, and the build altogether is more energy conservative allowing longer preasure. When I see any Elementist elite, I'm thinking how am I going to put out more overall damage and maintain energy for this and all my other spells without dual attunement, and you can't tell me that Double Dragon is worth sacrificing a second attunment and scorching a nearby area of foes for 5 energy. AoE needs an upgrade.--BahamutKaiser 23:29, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

As already suggested, this skill screams for a larger AoE update. That or the skill as a whole needs to be reworked, maybe something like this "Elite Spell. Target foe is struck for 7...91...112 fire damage. If Double Dragon strikes a burning foe, adjacent foes are struck for 7...71...91 fire damage and set on fire for 3 seconds." Forgot to sign... OblivionDanny 13:35, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion: Lower recharge time. Elite Spell. For two seconds all foes adjacent to target ally are struck for 7...91...112 fire damage each second. 87.189.217.45 16:48, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Glowing Gaze

Glowing Gaze - You should boost up the damage.--§ Eloc § 16:04, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

The good thing about these skills isn't the damage but the secondary effect. Their secondary effects look ok to me.Nicky Silverstar 06:02, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Ya, that's why I am only suggesting to raise the damage, and keep the secondary effect how it is.--§ Eloc § 06:07, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

The skills are fine as is because it's basically the only damaging energy management (unless I'm forgetting one, don't think I am) in the game excluding Mind Blast, which is an elite. —g???s?[[[User talk:Mgrinshpon|?]]/?] 06:28, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

There's also Essence Strike and several attack skills with conditional energy gain. -- Gordon Ecker 06:58, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

But Essence Strike leaves you relatively immobile. —g???s?[[[User talk:Mgrinshpon|?]]/?] 07:05, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

True, I was just pointing it out as another damaging energy managament skill. -- Gordon Ecker 07:13, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

But the thing is, I could care less about the energy management right now. It is at like 10 which is fine. I'm talking about the damage, not the energy management. I think one of the only skills that get better with Burning should do a little more damage.--§ Eloc § 16:11, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

But the thing is, this skill does two things at once. You can't ignore the fact that it is a great energy management skill while trying to determine the damage it does - it's perfectly balanced the way it is. If it as much damage as Fireball, for example, but gave you +10 energy, why on earth would anyone use fireball? You've got to keep stuff like that in mind when trying to buff damage on a utility skill. -Auron 04:17, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

XD, like no one seems to use Fireball now a days. I also don't hear any comments under Steam =S.--§ Eloc § 18:25, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Neither of these skills are meant for damage. The damage they do even now is just an added bonus. Hell, there is a reason Glowing Gaze is so popular on fire bars (with attunement you gain close to 7 energy every 8 seconds, or about 2.6 pips of regen). And why doesn't anyone comment on Steam? Because no one uses it. Probably one of the more balanced skills in the game, I think. The req is easier to fill than you think, the debuff is both powerful and active, and me and my friends have seen so many warriors, assassins, dervishes, paragons and rangers die thinking they could just wail on us when we pack this skill. I'd rather they leave it as is, one of those hidden gems, so that it doesn't get overused or nerfed. Cibi 18:50, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, if no one uses Steam, except for me, maybe it's underpowered considering no one uses it.--§ Eloc § 02:52, 18 August 2007 (UTC)"

I don't think it is underpowered, it is just that most players won't even try to fit this on their skillbar, because they think only Air Blind Bots or Water Snares are viable. Make this skill armor do twice the damage, and it would still be underplayed. It is mostly the players' fault, not the skill. Nicky Silverstar 06:52, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

GG is awesome paired with SF and fire attune, you can't run out of energy spamming SF/GG. I really don't see how this skill is underpowered in any way as it does exactly what it's supposed to. If you take a non elite skill to deal damage and act as energy management don't expect it to be perfect at either :P --Tankity Tank 09:42, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not talking about the energy management part, I'm talking about the damage.--§ Eloc § 04:22, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

But the energy management is part of the skill. Your argument about it not doing enough damage is about like saying Fire Attunement should increase damage. This skill is meant to be almost negligible damage, and have an energy management effect, which it does. It isn't meant to be a killer, it is meant to fuel your killers, while also doing a small amount of damage itself. --Deathwing 06:06, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Yep, this isn't a damage spell - it's energy management with some bonus damage on the side. --Tankity Tank 07:27, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

It's a 50+ damage skill that nets you 1-2 energy without attunes. Stop crying.Shard

Well there are 2 more skills, glowstone and Glowing Ice now, both are also nice. I think this skill is fine enough, but it could use a slight recharge reduction. Hey if I can get 1 or 2 seconds back I would be elated, cause GG, SF and FA is not unlimited energy, im using 10 energy every 3 seconds and pausing every 8 seconds to get back 5. SF is a bit expensive.--BahamutKaiser 00:37, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Glowstone is from Nightfall68.82.216.207 20:37, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Water Magic

Swirling Aura

Am I missing some hidden use for this skill, or is it as bad as it looks? --Temjen 19:26, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and it's even worse than it looks. Buff please.--PunkSkeleton 23:43, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

change recharge and let it be casted on ally

20s recharge, 'target ally' would indeed makes this much more interesting. Could have some use for example to protect a LoD Monk that has a Ranger in his face. Patccmoi 13:39, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

That's like a poor Guardian. There's no reason for this to not have 1/4 second cast, or a lowered recharge time. — Rapta (talk|contribs) 06:50, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm a bit worried about a 20s recharge, since then this could be kept almost indefinitely. If I were to change this, I would make it into "target ally", reduce duration to around 5 seconds, reduce casting time to 1/4 of a second and then reduce recharge to around 20s. It would be useful as a quick way to help a target who's under arrow's attack or who's going to cast something important that you don't want to be interruped with Distracting Shot, but it would not be useable to keep a target protected most of the time. It would require more precision to know when to use this one. Erasculio 14:31, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Target ally would be a huge change since usually, all "protect ally from attack" skills are monk business. That being said, the skill is totally useless atm, something needs to be changed, so maybe giving ele a (less useful than monk ones) target ally skill is not that bad. --Xeeron 12:07, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

The fact that it's extremely niche kills it - there are just so many skills, and so many of them have no flexibility in them at all. So much reform is needed... anyway, Swirly Aura: bump energy to 15, have it add evasion to any attack, and it might see play in formats that involve being isolated. -- 02:10, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

15e 1c 20r Enchantment Spell. For 8...18...20 seconds, target ally has a 50% chance to block attacks. Every time an attack is blocked, the attacker takes 8...18...20 cold damage. This enchantment ends after 10 attacks. --Deathwing 18:10, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Let it work like a ward (like ward against melee only that it works against ranged and is water magic) - lower recharge to 20 or something then it would be worth using. Eli Wiki 18:57, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Being truly like a Swirling 'Aura' around you would be pretty cool, with something like 'you and all nearby allies have 50% chance to block projectiles'. With something like 10/1/20, 5..10..11 duration. Leave it self-cast, but it'd help with party defense a bit, though not some retarded passive defense that requires no skill because 'Nearby allies' isn't big at all, but if a monk had trouble with a Ranger for instance and wants to throw Aegis up, or use LoD, etc. you could move near him with Swirling to help him out. Patccmoi 15:40, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

That's a fantastic idea. Truly impressed with that. Brings positioning to a defensive buff, but in a more active manor than a ward. Very nice... Fro 19:28, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I like that idea, plz make this skill useful 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Another simple suggestion for this: make it a stance. I know it'd be the only ele stance in the game, but it would add some interesting choices to flagstand ele bars because of the ever-present danger of dshot. --72.211.155.160 08:56, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Both are good ideas, but flavor-wise, how great is an ele at huge defensive water swirl thingies...? IMO this skill is out of place on an ele bar. And it occurs to me that as a stance, you miss out on enchanting mods... Armond 14:07, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Make this "For X..X Seconds, you and all nearby allies have a X..X% chance to block projectiles and have +X..X armor." 10 to 15 energy cost, Recharge depends on duration scale (obviously higher recharge than duration), 1 or 2 second cast time. Example would be 1..7 seconds duration, 20..54% block chance, +0..17 armor, 1 second cast, 13 second recharge, 10 energy cost. 74.14.106.67 02:09, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Make it a ward, reduce the recharge imo. It's balanced because you have to spec into 2 attributes for this and Ward Against Melee. So it would be difficult for one person to keep both up all the time. --Macros 02:09, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I would rather see an equivalent to Ward Against Melee, as in Ward Against Ranged, or Swirling Ward, or maybe not change the name, but simply offer 50% chance to block projectile attacks in a Ward. Part time Projectile only defense only on yourself with a 2 second cast time is......... well just read those circumstances........--BahamutKaiser 21:43, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I still think Patccmoi's idea is the best I've heard in regard to this skill. It can be strong and offer 'moving' 50% adjacent projectile block for perhaps around 40% of it's recharge (I'm thinking 7-8 in 20) with all the problems adjacent positioning provides, but it can also be removed quite easily. In fact low duration and low recharge works quite well as a limiter. Worked wonders for Blurred Vision imo Fro 19:34, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

What is good about this skill though, is that it helps countering interrupt rangers. That in itself is somewhat useful, and when making a ward out of it, something that should be considered. Nicky Silverstar 13:20, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Melee have interrupts, knockdowns and there are spell interrupts as well, so I wouldn't merit ranged projectile defense any higher than melee defense, since melee also does more damage. I like this best as an enchantment which protects nearby allies though, it is just nice and original.--BahamutKaiser 17:43, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

True, but the fact is, that melee fighters don't specialize in interruption as much as rangrs do. That was all I meant, and with the block reducing going on, that might be something Izzy doesn't want. I don't say that I'm against it personally though...Nicky Silverstar 08:29, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Change this to block spell projectiles as well. 87.189.216.38 23:11, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Mist Form

Another elite that's worse than its non-elite counterpart. Compare to Armor of Mist: same energy cost, cast time, recharge time, and duration. But as it is Mist Form currently sees no use in PvP. I propose a simple change that would make this an elite Armor of Mist: give it a 33% speed buff. This would make it a viable choice for water flag runners, because it offers more protection from melee (but not conditions!) but sacrifices the added armor from AoM so you have less defense against spells. At the cost of the elite slot. --Macros 19:31, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

That's still weak enough that nobody would run it. If defense against spells is an issue chances are there's a Shatter around, and actual attack damage is generally the least of a runner's worries. (Getting KD'd, snared, interrupted, poisoned, etc. are far more dangerous). I'd rather see this given some sort of *serious* defensive ability (along the lines of 75% or even 100% *block*, not just immunity to damage, or immunity to conditions that require a fleshy target or whatever) and the cost increased to match. Self-defense elite enchantments have to be *seriously* good before anyone will consider them. --72.211.155.160 08:49, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

With Glyph of Swiftness you'll be able to keep it up permanently at high water. Just give it a 33% speed buff and you got a worthy elite running skill imo. I'd agree that 33% move speed is all that's needed here Patccmoi 14:51, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I never understood what mist has to do with speed, not saying speed isn't useful or neccessary, just seems kind of akward.--BahamutKaiser 21:48, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

It won't be used because the effect is something farming-like. It needs to have a use beyond pissing off weapon users.--Life Infusion «T» 03:14, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Before you get too carried away, if you buff this to include more then weapon users, is makes PvE in prophecies a lot harder with PUG'sRhydeble 22:20, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

When you think about it, in hard mode if you use Glyph of Swiftness, 15 water magic, and a 20% enchanting spear or staff, then you can keep this up all the time. It won't save you from everything, but auto-attack damage is pretty steep in hard mode. --Life Infusion «T» 14:17, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Mirror of Ice

outclassed by Reversal of Damage, a non-elite. - Skakid9090 21:11, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Lower the duration to 30 seconds, lower the recharge to 5, increase damage to maybe 25...90 or something like that.--John deathblade 21:19, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Still wont help, here problem is not spamability or damage, problem is that is self cast only, making it pretty useless most of the time. I suggest making it castable on Party Member or even on Ally and scale duration with Water magic. Zweistein 08:30, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Nice in AB and for the few that like to scrimage 1 on 1 vs each other. Not at all usefull ANYWHERE else. Zweistein is right. And its not going to be buffed because its not really an eles job to be enchanting everyone. --71.184.113.36 08:46, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

There's no reason Ele's can't cast enchantments on party members....Windborne Speed anyone?--ChronicinabilitY 11:31, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

If you made it possible to be cast on other party members, it would have to have a slightly higher recharge then 10 since it has a 60 second duration. Gotta make it where it cant be spammed on your whole party to prevent spells. Maybe make it 15-20 second recharge, make it cast on everyone else, keep everything the same.--John deathblade 20:53, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Crazy idea time: turn it into a ward. The first time it triggers (whenever anyone inside the ward is the target of an enemy spell), the ward is gone. Erasculio 00:12, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Sightly less crazy version of what you just said; keep it a self-enchant, but re-word it to trigger off the next spell targeting you or an adjacent party member. Still a self-centered skill, but now you can cuddle up with your Monk and bounce spells... just make sure not to make the range any bigger, or it'll just trigger off of any random spell close by. Keep it a tight radius, so you have a bit more say as to who gets the protection. -- Jioruji Derako.> 11:08, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

The functionality needs to be reworked to make it less active, but more active at the same time. For example: "Target ally is enchanted with Mirror of Ice for X..X seconds (very short duration like 5 seconds). If a spell is cast on target ally while they are under this enchantment, the enemy takes X..X damage and is Crippled for X..X seconds." 5 Energy cast, 10 to 18 second recharge, 1/4 or 1 second casting time. 74.14.106.67 02:04, 17 August 2007 (UTC

I don't see why this can't be simple, just reduce the duration to 10 seconds and allow it to be castable on allies, they can even cut the duration and recharge down to 5 seconds, and make it a reflex spell blocking ability. They could also make it block the effect of any offensive spell, even non-damaging ones.

5 energy, 1/4s cast, 5s recharge. For 5s target ally is enchanted, next spell (any) is nullified and target foe takes (same) damage. Reflex use and allied use is far better than duration, and in comparison to RoD, it really only wins out because an elementist can do it, and a spell is typically more determental than a random hit of damage.--BahamutKaiser 22:14, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Has so much potential as BahamutKaiser's suggestion. Makes it a mini-obsidian flesh/spell shield. --Life Infusion «T» 03:12, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I'll make a suggestion that doesn't involve turning Elementalists into monks. Make Mirror of Ice block multiple spells, if you are casting spells. "For 15 seconds, if you are casting a spell, when an enemy Spell would deal damage to you, that damage is negated and that Spell's caster takes 10...70 damage." 10 Energy. 1/4 Cast. 25 Recharge. --Reklaw 23:25, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Hex please. |GD Defender / contribs 20:09, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Skakid is right, i'd rather use Reversal of Damage any day, what this skill lacks is a faster recharge as it cannot be cast on others, and shouldn't be able to. its much like hex breaker too but this only negates the damage, it should be more like a one time spell breaker which mirrors the spell back so that the caster takes the same spell, with all its effects, not just low damage. --Cursed Angel 20:57, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Even with a 1 second recharge, I still couldn't see this being used often...Elite self-defense, and a very one-dimensional one at that. --Deathwing 01:56, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

How about reworking the skill completely. This is what I was thinking: 10e, 1-2c, 15-20r, For 10-15 seconds, all allies in the area are enchanted with Mirror of Ice. The next time allies enchanted by Mirror of Ice take damage from a spell, that damage is negated and the spell's caster takes 10...70...85 damage. The cast, recharge, and damage may need some adjustments, but this would give the skill some much needed utility. --Rururrur 05:53, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

yah, it needs a rework, in the area is small enough to not make it overpowered, but still this isnt what elementalists should do. And add the next 1..4 spells would make it too awsome in team arenas for example. It should negate the whole effect of the spells at first and mirror the whole thing back + 70 damage, else just make it to a ward of ice or something. --Cursed Angel 18:00, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok, so how about this: Elite Hex Spell: For 10 seconds, the next 1..2..3 elementalist spells that cause damage also deal damage to nearby foes. --Rururrur 21:01, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

(5, 1/4, 6) For 20 seconds, the next 2 enemy Spells would deal damage to you, that damage is negated and that Spell's caster takes 10...70...85 damage. 87.189.239.207 13:02, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Steam

Steam - Hardly does any damage, even when it's met it's pre-req.--§ Eloc § 16:04, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

It does more damage than Stone Daggers for the same amount of energy and it is more versatile too. Plus, it is WAY better than Ash Blast. Nicky Silverstar 06:22, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Stone Daggers has no recharge. Ash Blast has longer blind duration and without the Fire requirment of Steam, it does less than Ash Blast.--§ Eloc § 08:18, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, if the target IS burning, then it does MORE damage. And the duration hardly matters, the target is usually either cured or dead within 10 seconds. This skill may not be spammable, but it sure does a lot of damage for only 5 energy. Compare it to Water Trident, which is an elite skill. :-) Just compare it to any 5 energy elementalist spell. This thing can do a lot of damage, but it needs to be combined with something. That's the idea behind the spell. If you always hit a burning target, then it is great.Nicky Silverstar 18:05, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

This works really well with Glyph of Immolation.--Skye Marin 15:35, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, but it's still clumsy, and the damage isn't anything impressive. 84 _conditional_ damage at 16 spec is hardly anything to write home about, and neither is _conditional_ blind on a 1s cast and 8r. Izzy needs to decide if this is a damage skill with blind as a bonus, or blind skill with damage as a bonus. If the former the damage could use a boost to 10...100. If the latter the recharge and/or cast time needs to come down. --Symbol 02:32, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

You really want 100 damage for 5 energy? Even though it already does the most damage of all 5 energy Elementalist spells? This skill defenitely does NOT need more damage. Not unless every other Elementalist skill gets a boost. Nicky Silverstar 06:40, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Who cares about energy efficiency? Elementalists have the best elite and non-elite energy management in the game. Meanwhile the conditional effect is a drawback you can't get around, no matter what it's going to cost you in skill slots and attribute points. --Symbol 08:49, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

That is not entirely true. You can build a team to supplement this skill, and it is not as if Burning on another character would be totally useless, so the 'investment' would be really small...Nicky Silverstar 10:38, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I think it is good enough, but with a recast of 8 seconds and a condition that has to be provided by a teammate or investment in a different attribute, the blinding should be longer.--BahamutKaiser 00:40, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

In the current game, conditional stuff that apply conditions are generally a waste of time. Condition removal is far too easy. Stuff like Ash Blast and Steam need to be far more aggressive if they are to be taken seriously. The recharge alone on these 2 make them bad for controlling physicals. Steam is almost pointless when you have access to Blurred Vision. It's not going to provide with the time to do what it is you want to do if a ranger is camping you (Mending Touch/monks). Gale (+ Blurred if you like) is far better. Where as melee can be successfully controlled with aggressive snares and Blurred.Fro 20:19, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

It also does about 50% more damage as well. All I needs is duration, if a foe brings condition removal so be it. Perhaps an even better alteration to Ash Blast and Steam would be adjacent foes blinded, that would be a serious improvement.--BahamutKaiser 03:52, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

50% more damage? Sorry I don't understand. The Aoe blind might work quite well, however I'm still dubious about how many people would slot skills that require you to jump through annoying hoops when condition removal is ridiculously easy to achieve. I'm not sure if I would bother personally... Fro 13:35, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

It's a fairly powerful water nuke, 80 or so damage is almost as strong as the best water nukes, so a skill which cost 5 energy offers either moderate damage with an ineffective recharge, or high (water context) damage along with blind if combine with burning.

It could use some tweaking, but it's weakness is derived more from a general water magic lack of potency and frequency, not the specific weakness of this skill.--BahamutKaiser 03:44, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

"Hex Spell. Target foe takes 5...41...50 cold damage. For 8 seconds, the next 1...3...4 times that target foe is hit with fire damage, that foe is blinded for 3 seconds and takes 5...17...20 cold damage."

Maybe? Would probably need tweaked a little, or just might not work in general. Possibly change fire damage to inflicted with Burning, but I'm not sure. --Deathwing 03:56, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

That's a really creative improvement. It makes plenty of sense and it is alot easier. It would definetly have to go up in cost though.--BahamutKaiser 02:17, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

In total agreement. That is a very creative fix for the skill. My only reservation would be the 2-stage process required to blind. One of the reasons it's weak right now is because of that, and your options (beyond fire wanding') for blind are somewhat limited. I say limited because it only blinds for 3 seconds.

Incidentally Weapon of Shadow had similar problems with this. Recursive blinding is a great idea, but if the duration is too short it's almost pointless (generally too small a window and blind reduction mods). That was upped to 5 seconds. I think since this requires you to actively do stuff to continually add the blind and the hex being removable, a 6 second max duration would be appropriate. Also the increase BahamutKaiser suggest would seem entirely appropriate as well. Fro 10:23, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Not sure there should be that much added cold damage on this skill somehow when it triggers, it'd then become a ubiquitous skill to use with a pile of Fire DoTAoEs, and you can fire in slippery ground to easily keep them in it, and protective spirit would do little against it. Maybe adding a cap on how many times the extra cold damage can trigger (like once a second, minimum) that's make sure that it would be used for its intended purpose more. Other than that I'm all for this idea. --Ckal Ktak 11:52, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Weapon of Shadow offers nothing but defensive blind only if the foe attacks them, putting a hex which reapplies blind every time you use any fire spell is totally different, besides dealing damage, you force blindness on them, unlike punishing them for their action. Deathwings suggestion leaves little room for improvement since it is a very powerful effect as is.--BahamutKaiser 04:38, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Erm...is it just me or is 170 damage a little high for a 5 energy skill? Nevermind, read it wrong. Still strong damage. Took the route of buffing numbers instead of buffing effect. Woot. --Deathwing 18:41, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Other

Elementalist Skill Rebalance

→ moved from User talk:Isaiah Cartwright

Hello Mr. Cartwright sir. I would like to submit 3 Elementalist skills for rebalancing. The skills, Mind Burn, Mind Shock and Mind Freeze. They are ok elites, with decent effects but the Exhaustion in those skills is far too debilitating to be used according to their recast time. I believe that these skills should cost more energy, say 10 or 15, but no exhastion. They are hardly ever used for that reason and I would like to see them be brought back into the Meta-game. Thank you for your time (If you read this) 68.226.80.7 03:11, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Mind Shock is the only one of the three that's actually worth the price, it's like pre-nerf Gale, where player experience improves the actual effect of the skill. Icy Shackles outclasses Mind Freeze even though statistically, it's a weaker skill (only because exhaustion is costly and an additional 24% slowdown actually isn't required). Mind Burn could work with Earthen Shackles, but that's still about a month away before that combo can be utilised. --Kale Ironfist 04:15, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi 68.226.80.7, Izzy already addressed all of the mind skills in an earlier post. The reason that these skills are balanced the way they are is that the damage occurs in two packets, thus it passes right through most prot. In competitive play (read: GvG, HA) this is a serious balance consideration, in PvE or low end PvP play (read: RA, TA or AB) these elite skills might not be the best choice. --Pork soldier 05:20, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I believe its exhaustion which needs a little change not mind spells, it takes ~30 sec until exhaustion of only one spell goes away, this is what makes mind spells(and any other low recharge spell with exhaustion) almost useless, exhaustion should reduce your energy pool more but disappear faster

I disagree. Gale is a prime example of a skill that would be broken if exhaustion was more forgiving. In it's entire existence, exhaustion has never been a problem and is a good game mechanic in general to stop skills from being overpowering (such as Obsidian Flame - imagine if you could consistently spike every 7 seconds?). It's not exhaustion's fault that Mind Burn and Mind Freeze are sub-par skills.--99.246.5.115 00:03, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Sure, it wouldn't hurt for Mind Burn to be a little stronger, but its primary problem isn't exhaustion, damage, or anything else - it's that Fire Magic is unplayable without the elite doing most of the work.--Mysterial 22:19, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, no. The problem with Mind Burn is the cost of exhaustion for a longlasting burning. You could easily switch out Mind Burn for Mind Blast, add in Mark of Rodgort and now you're able to burn them for a long time while gaining energy in the process. The other mind skills are fine as is, because they have more utility, being that they can be used more than just offensively. --Kale Ironfist 00:35, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

exhaustion lasts too long, make it go away after 20 sec instead of 30 --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:80.133.72.145 .

I think Elementalists are enjoying quite a good place in terms of balance currently. You very often see fire elementalists both in PvE and PvP teams. Yes you only see 2 elites being used, Searing Flames and Savannah Heat, but whenever new chapters get released the fire elementalist bar seems to jump on its latest new nuking elite. Think back to the release of factions and the birth of the Starburst ele. Everytime new and more powerful elites are introduced they instantly replace the older elites. To be quite honest, even if skills like Mind Burn were buffed I doubt that people would choose to run it instead of Savannah Heat and Searing Flames, after all the main purpose behind the use of the fire elementalist is to provide AoE dmg rather than single target dmg. Water eles have a choice between 3 useful elites, Water Trident, Shatterstone, Icy Shackles, each have their own disadvantages and advantages. if Mind freeze was buffed by reducing the effects of exhaustion, Mind Freeze would replace all of these elites and we would see a very undynamic water ele bar as a result. With regards to Air elementalists, im afraid buffing Mind Shock would not replace the Blinding Surge bars that are so popular currently. In PvE i think air eles are unpopular because they cannot provide as much AoE dmg as Fire elementalists, so giving them a another single target dmg spell would not help them become a more attractive option. As far as air elementalists go in PvP i think they have found a comfortable position in the role of support for defense and offense. The earth elementalist needs the most help out of the 4. At the moment, earth elementalist skills like wards and grasping earth are slotted into air elementalist or fire elementalist bars instead of appearing on a dedicated earth elementalist bar. I think this is a symptom of the fact that Air, fire, water elementalists excel in their particular foci, that being, single target offense/defense for air eles, AoE nuking for fire eles, and single target and multiple target snares for water eles. The earth elementalist has skills to achieve all 3 of these roles but its jack of all trades master of none approach is the block which stops it from being chosen instead of its 3 cousins. I think the earth elementalist needs to be given its own niche. Looking at its skills currently and thinking about the notion of 'earth' i think an interesting idea would be to make the earth elementalist the king of knockdown, the king of disruption, making things unstable, and making things crumble. Earthquake is a fine example of a skill that sets the earth elementalist apart from the others. AoE knockdown. Unsteady Ground continues this theme by knocking down attacking foes. Eruption is one of the games only AoE blinds. Skills that inflict weakness tie in with the concept of an earth elementalist a little. The thing is, all the above skills are very conditional and only allow the earth elementalist to carry out its role in short and very rare bursts. Earthquake costs 25 energy and causes exhaustion, is spammable on recharge only when used in conjuntion with Glyph of Energy which ties up and elite slot. Eruption also costs 25 energy, does very little damage and has a relatively long recharge. Unsteady Ground suffers from a very small Area of effect and a long recharge, meaning it provides very limited anti-melee defense. Skills that inflict weakness are not spammable and provide little to no secondary effects which makes it very weak when used in defense. I think if skills like earthquake, unsteady ground, eruption, were buffed with lower energy costs and lower recharge times the dedicated earth ele could see more use. To balance this buffing you could perhaps reduce the dmg done by these skills. But perhaps the disruption and windows of opportunity given by these skills would be valuable enough to warrant the lower dmg. Dont forget, fire eles are the king of AoE damage but provide little to no utility. Earth eles could be the king of AoE offensive and defensive utility but provide no significant AoE dmg. Any thoughts?--Lorekeeper 12:35, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Just wanted to point out that Fire is the line of choice for single target damage, and that Air is the blind attribute. Mind Blast is generally the elite of choice for Fire Eles in competitive play. I'm pretty happy with where Fire and Water guys are right now, but Air and Earth need some more depth if they are to hold their own. -Ensign 20:49, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Strange, I find earth to be the one with the most depth. Fire is just BURN DAMAGE DIEEEE. Water is...slow. --Deathwing 23:51, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

In PvE air eles are indeed unpopular for the reasons already mentioned, buffing Chain Lighting is here the key for air eles to become a more attractive option. (Invoke lightning, Chain Lightning, Water Hex + Arc Lightning) 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Air is held back pretty severely by lack of depth. Invoke Lightning and Blinding Surge are both good skills, but the non-elite skills in the line are almost universally weak. Earth is just bad at dealing damage, making it a support element that can't stand alone very well. -Ensign 10:43, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Indeed I would have to agree with this. Earth is hideously underpowered. It has some okay AoE sure, but all of it sits at 2 second casts or higher. You can not use these actively that well for competitive play.

You want to use Unsteady Ground or Eruption to stop melee collapsing onto an area:

First of all most good warriors will hide the target well enough that you'll only have around 1-2 seconds to see who the target is. That is the environment. What does the Ele have to contend with before he can even get his spell off? A 2 second cast targeting melee. He'll get either Gale, D. Shot, a Power interrupt, or worse, death in the face if he becomes the switch target. The guy is basically too slow.

Even if he could find a way to stop himself getting Gale or Power Block in the face (which would involve building your bar around 1 rigid, inflexible use) you get to control an area for 5 seconds at best. All that effort just to get there too late, or get there mid-way and do nothing as the guys is already prot-ed and the melee have switched targets.

All of the solid damage options (a colossal 1 skill, Obsidian Flame) have 2 second casts. The others are all projectiles. Stoning is too expensive to run as general hate, and Ebon Hawk is a projectile with a 2 second cast that hits one guy (ala Lightning Orb. No one in pvp can truly rely on L. Orb these days). Fireball has similar stats sure, but it's AoE so is far less prone to missing.

Theres e-management option in terms of the abysmal Glowstone. It has stats similar to Glowing Gaze except it's another projectile, making it highly unreliable. The 1 second less recharge is not good enough a rebate. Then there's the fact that the Earth guy has no reliable weakness skill. G. Gaze, has at least 2 good options for burning, with more coming in Gwen. The new Glowing Ice works off of water hexes. You might as well have made it unconditional seeing as how easy that is to apply on a water hexer. There's no need to elaborate on how bad most of the elites are...

If your going to make a caster require line of sight (and add miss chance) to use any spells, they really aught to be 'more' powerful or more efficient than their 'cast anywhere' counterparts. Right now they are far weaker. The argument that earth is a defense line is somewhat mute as non-earth elementalists have been dipping into the line to get the best defense (Melee Ward, not so much these days but Ward Against Foes) since the beginning. It's just bad, and non of the new skills coming in Gwen really do much to address this... Fro 11:09, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

(reset)I am not that unhappy with the Geomancer's skills at the moment, it's just that the high recharge makes me sit around doing nothing 75% of the time. What I would like to see personally is a little more synergy between the skills for Earth. Some skills can work together, but it just to hard to make it worth it. For instance, Glowstone, Ebon Hawk and Stoning might work together, but the weakness is too situational and thus Glowstone doesn't return enough energy, making Stoning too expensive. Same with Ash Blast or Aftershock and Earthquake/Dragon's Stomp. They CAN work together, but you'll get interrupted and the other skill will just do nothing. Crystal Wave and Shockwave are great skills, but to use them effectively, you'll need no lag. I have tried them, but I cannot use the skill properly, because lag will cause me to miss my targets often. All the Earth Magic skills are thus 'barely' playable, but not yet. They need synergy more than they need a buff. Maybe an AoE that causes weakness? Let Air keep blindness, and make Earth a weakness line. That's what I'd like to see, and then all skills could function together as a team.Nicky Silverstar 07:20, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, Earth is a joke. After the nerf to Sandstorm, Earth Magic lost its last good elite. Now it's Obs Flame spike which isn't effective anymore compared to SH spike or SF in HA and a well placed Spirit Bond demolishes it in GvG. The only time I see Earth eles are those stupid ones in AB with a bunch of tanking skills and 0 damage output. —g?????[[[User talk:Mgrinshpon|?]]/?] 09:23, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I find earth to be quite effective, atleast in PvE. Eruption is great for shutting down physical attackers. Unsteady Ground also helps to shut down physical attackers. Then you have the wards, everyone love wards. The Earth Magic line is the only elementalist line that I use. --Deathwing 09:39, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I forgot about wards. :/ I find that wards are rolled into a B-surge ele or an SS Warder more commonly. It's more of an afterthought. I think that (and I'm sure I can't be the only one) offensively, at least, Earth Magic is severely lacking in "oomph". —g?????[[[User talk:Mgrinshpon|?]]/?] 10:08, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong, I like Earth a lot and use it as my only attribute in both PvE and PvP and in PvE, it is really good, especially versus melee, as you already pointed out. But the fact that its skill work so poorly together really hurts it in PvP. It doesn't matter as much in PvE, where you have time to recharge. In PvP, if your combo is unreliable, or you're doing nothing for 20 seconds, you've got a huge disadvantage. Ash Blast cannot function well with Dragon's Stomp or Churning Earth, even if it does, the blinding is easily removed. Glowstone and Stoning are great, but Ebon Hawk can't apply weakness well enough to rely on the combo, a new EotN needs burning, which Earth doesn't have at all, etc. The elite AoE spells are great, but they stand alone among skills that really don't function well combined. I am happy to surrender some damage if they make these combo's more playable. They're just not reliable ATM.Nicky Silverstar 15:35, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Earth most definitely needs a buff. Air has bsurge/gale, water blurred/spikes, fire still has potent dps, and earth...well it seems to have been lost in translation ;). Readem Promote My Ban Here 06:17, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

It is not that Earth isn't powerful (because it is, try combining all the AoE spells in one bar), but despite all multi-element promotion, I think people really like to focus on one element for RPG reasons. Just like a warrior doesn't have to switch between weapons, or a necro can use just curses or just minions, it would be very cool if I could use just Earth when I want to play a weakness build...Nicky Silverstar 13:52, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Refering to the original suggestion, I think nearly all spells with exhaustion are a little over taxed, exhaustion is a very determental status and it nearly prohibits use by anything but elementist, I've seen nearly every spell with exhaustion struggle to justify the amount of cost it requires. I think it is about time the amount of energy removed by exhaustion, or the regeneration of exhaustion be changed. Or exhaustion could be altered with different amounts for different spells, so some disable 5 energy and others disable 10. It would also make sense if Elementist had some profession specific runes like warrior, which reduced exhaustion or increase exhaustion recovery, personally, I think it is more relavent then Warriors having -3 damage reduction.--BahamutKaiser 03:46, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Mmm...I see your point. I'd vote for such a rune/insignia. Mistress of Trade 16:25, 28 December 2007 (UTC)