Guild Wars Wiki talk:Projects/Drop research/Archive 2

Profession based on drops

Profession

→ moved from Talk:River Skale Tad#Profession

No. Creatures are not prohibited from dropping from other professions' weapons. --Irgendwer 00:23, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, not really, go kill and give me a screen of a non-ele dropping flame artifact. Of course there are some weapons that drop from all profs, but you cant get for example a flame artifact from a warrior/mesmer/necro/whatever. ***EAGLEMUT*** TALK 00:30, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Actually, yes, you can. Many casters drop weapons with requirements in other profession's attributes, and many melee foes drop weapons that they wouldn't have the attribute to use. If you want to edit things based on speculation, stick to GW2W. GWW is based on facts and hard evidence. --- NessHrin | 0:33, 8 Aug 2010 (UTC)

I am afraid I must link you here "Profession-specific wands, staves and focus items are generally only dropped by monsters of the same profession." 'nuff said. Give me that screen of a Flame Artifact and I will agree with you. ***EAGLEMUT*** TALK 00:37, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

First off, this is the Official Wiki. What is on the Unofficial Wiki means nothing here. Also,

Less than five minutes in pre. --- NessHrin | 0:40, 8 Aug 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, but please read the page I linked, official wiki has unfortunately like no info on "loot" article, that screen is not proving me wrong at all. ***EAGLEMUT*** TALK 00:42, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Okay, if you hate that wiki so much I will copy it here for you:

Axes, hammers, swords, shields and bows are dropped by monsters of all professions in all campaigns, and daggers are dropped by monsters of all professions in the Factions campaign. Profession-specific wands, staves and focus items are generally only dropped by monsters of the same profession. Variable attribute wands and staves dropped by any monster can be linked to the attributes of any caster profession. Variable attribute focus items dropped by Monks, Necromancer, Mesmer, Elementalist and Ritualist monsters are linked to one of the attributes of the monster's profession. It is not currently known if Warriors, Rangers or Assassins can drop variable attribute focus items.

Because of this, Ritualists wands, staves and focus items are quite rare in Guild Wars Nightfall. They can only be obtained from collectors, weaponsmiths, chests, Ritualist bosses and Shiro'ken Ritualists, which are the only non-boss Ritualists in the campaign. ***EAGLEMUT*** TALK 00:45, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

If you're so avid on your flame artifact, look around the drop research of that page. It can drop from Ritualists. Look around some of the other focus items' drop research pages as well and you will see that not only the profession of the item's attribute drops it. Your point it still moot. --- NessHrin | 0:48, 8 Aug 2010 (UTC)

To be honest, you just totally confirmed what I am saying by linking to that page as all entries but one added by IP(He prolly just put a wrong name) are Eles. ***EAGLEMUT*** TALK 00:52, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

You do know that IPs aren't automatically unable to read and write, right? -Auron 00:55, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

(EC)Oh god, not this again, yeah, as I am writing fast this sounds like it but I just meant he misspelled it NOTHING MORE, anyway look through other of these research articles and you will see what am I talking about.. ***EAGLEMUT*** TALK 01:04, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

(Reset indent) I'm going to stop now, because obviously nothing I say is going to show you that they aren't Elementalists. The real point here is that a monster's drops are not enough evidence to show what profession they are, period. If you would like to continue to pursue this, I would recommend adding a RfC on this page, and come to a community consensus before any of your speculation can be confirmed as fact and Skale (and other no-profession monsters) are definitely one profession amongst others. --- NessHrin | 0:58, 8 Aug 2010 (UTC)

Duh, I am done lol. As a last try, I beg you to browse more of these research pages to see what am I talking about. ***EAGLEMUT*** TALK 01:04, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

All that's needed to disprove EAGLEMUT's argument is evidence that creatures can drop focus items from other professions than their own. One screenshot would do. Looking at the various focus articles, I seriously doubt anyone can provide one. --Irgendwer 01:06, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Although I have found three contradictions to your claim. Whether they are valid enough to overturn your theory would depend on you faith in the contributor.--The Emmisary 01:43, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

It does seem uncommon, at least. Another test would be to kill many River Skale Tads and see if they drop any Necromancer, Mesmer, Elementalist, or Monk focuses. --Irgendwer 01:47, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

This may be one of those uncommon instances unless you can get more elementalists items to drop from the skale.--The Emmisary 01:49, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, I am not saying these users wanted to vandalize the research or anything, but seeing as some users only type "?" and knowing my very own memory, I think that anyone can occasionally misspell a creature's name unless you write it somewhere immediately. One screen of a flame artifact or similar caster offhand weapon dropping from incorrect profession will be enough to make me apologize and revert the edits. Please also note that there are some common staves which are excepted from this rule and therefore their screening doesn't count, so I would prefer the off-hands to avoid more confusion. Also, as Irgendwer suggested, a screen of a Skale dropping non-ele offhand will also do. ***EAGLEMUT*** TALK 02:01, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Rather than basing your claims by what weapons they drop, you'd be better off to determine their profession based on what skills they use. If this does not provide conclusive indication of what profession they are, I think it would be most accurate to simply omit the profession (as it is now). -- Wyn talk 02:26, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

I just killed about 100 River Skale and River Skale Tads outside Ascalon City. Many dropped Elementalist items. A few dropped Warrior and Ranger items. That's it as far as weapons go. If they're not Elementalists, they're doing an excellent job of pretending, so I see no reason not to consider them Elementalists. --Irgendwer 02:48, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

I see a pretty good reason not to - they aren't actually eles. -Auron 02:56, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Prove it. --Irgendwer 02:59, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Okay, this section is going on the brink of destruction. Right now I'm seeing the question as "can we determine profession by what items a monster drops?" Now, I find it pretty stupid to test this on monsters that have no profession-based skill set, so I went out to Naphui quarter and tested this on some monsters there.
Note our first test subject, the Star Light. Being a ritualist, we expect drops such as channeling staves and other requirements of the ritualist profession. However, we see here a domination staff. (Note that I did not get the name of our friend here, but no Tengu in this area are mesmers.)
No matter, perhaps they only drop caster weapons. Even with this broad range, however, it does not determine profession. Per case two, our Star Sentinel subject here dropped a set of Stilletos. Now, last I checked, rangers were not assassins, and in our current case, cannot determind that he is an assassin. Because he's not.
I think it's pretty logical to say that items dropped does not a profession make. Now can we end this? -- Wandering Traveler 03:22, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Yep! -Auron 03:27, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't see how that's even relevant, actually. As EAGLEMUT pointed out, we already know that everything drops martial weapons and shields. My observation was that, apart from those, River Skale Tads only drop Elementalist items. Is that significant with respect to their profession (or lack thereof) or isn't it? If it isn't, then clearly my argument is groundless. If it is, then these Skale have one point in favor of their being Elementalists and none against. --Irgendwer 03:38, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

"A few dropped Warrior and Ranger items"

um.... -- Wandering Traveler 03:42, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

"we already know that everything drops martial weapons and shields." --Irgendwer 03:47, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

If you can show me, without a doubt, that river skale tads are elementalists, then feel free to list it. So far you only have rumors and guesses based on more rumors and guesses. Seeing as the monster doesn't use skills, I'd say err on the side of caution and list no profession at all. -Auron 04:03, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Since skill tomes, being the conventional indicator of profession (usually), don't drop pre-Searing, we can either guess or leave it blank. In the cases of Agnar the Foot, Ice Elemental Shard, Plague Worm, and others, we've chosen to guess. I don't have a problem with skillless creatures' professions not being judged by the weapons they drop (guessing, as you say), but those articles should also be changed for consistency. --Irgendwer 05:02, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Those three examples were not guesses. Their profession was determined by observing skill usage. In the case of River Skale Tads, you can't determine their profession from skill usage, so we should just leave it blank. X ip 05:09, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

What skill usage? They have one skill between them. It's a monster skill. --Irgendwer 05:18, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Well then, I stand somewhat corrected :D. Carry on with your argument then. X ip 05:22, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Nah, I'm done. I've got a pounding headache now, so if there are no objections I'll change the articles I mentioned tomorrow. --Irgendwer 05:33, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Uh, there are. If you want to raise the standard for identifying monsters in pre by altering the other articles, be my guest, but I haven't seen one shred of actual proof that these are eles and not any other caster class and thus I object to listing it as one. -Auron 05:46, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

We don't "guess" on the wiki. Either we ask someone at Anet for a factual answer, or we can go off of the facts we know and leave it blank. :\ -- Wandering Traveler 05:50, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, you can also go kill some non-Skale caster monster and see what they actually drop. I have been researching what monsters drop what for several months and made hundreds of data, and I assure you these guys are Elementalists. You can't tell me that a Skale dropping 1000s Ele items and 0 necro items is a Necro, that's just plain stupid. My proof is something anyone of you can very easily verify by themselves by going outside town and killing any caster mobs, you will see that Charr Dominators never drop Fire Wands and Charr Flameshielders never drop a single Bone Staff (random examle). If this is not enough for you (*sigh*) then I am also going to ask Emily. Also, I am yet awaiting to see a single screenshot to disprove me, according to what you say it should be easy so gimme... ***EAGLEMUT*** TALK 07:26, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Wandering Traveler already proved that some monsters drop staves and stuff from attributes that do not belong to their professions. Also, even some warriors drop staves, and I don't think staves fit in "Martial weapons and shields" category, right? The fact is that we can't know for sure their profession just but what they drop, so all we are doing is just speculate, and there's no room (or there shouldn't be) for speculation on wiki. --Lhoj 07:50, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

^ what he said. You're trying to base the "proof" that X monster is X profession on an item/loot table system that is barely understood, and then you turn around and want screenshot evidence that you're wrong? Haha.

River Skale Brood <- this is proven, beyond any doubts, to be an elementalist. It is logical to conclude that river scale tads are also elementalists, but like we've said about a thousand times, there is no actual proof of that claim. As soon as you can prove it, you can put it on the page. Until then, quit guessing. -Auron 07:57, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, tbh I kinda loled at that Auron, you either didn't read what I said or don't get it at all. For Lhoj, I have said that there are a few staves which drop from everything so.. yeah. Anyway, I am going to ask Emily and would appreciate if you guys would wait for the answer. ***EAGLEMUT*** TALK 10:13, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

(Reset indent) You seem to be the one that doesn't want to wait for the answer. And the River Skale Brood is proven to be and elementalist based on skills used, not items dropped. -- Wyn talk 10:47, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, since the question wasn't asked at the time I wrote it, your comment is a bit nonsense, even more as you are the first one to Reset indent and start a new discussing heh. To the second sentence, who says otherwise? Me not. ***EAGLEMUT*** TALK 10:59, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Indentation resets are not done to start a new discussion (wtf?) but to simply reset the indentation so texts actually stay readable. poke | talk 13:51, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't think anyone understood what Eaglemut is saying by profession specific items. The Cockatrice Staff is a multi-profession item, meaning that it can drop with a variety of attributes. Flame Artifacts can only be tied to Fire Magic, thus are Elementalist items so only they should drop such items. While there are exceptions, if they drop mostly Elementalist specific items then chances are that they indeed are Elementalists. Just my two cents. - Mei Fen 14:06, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Right, the chances are high. But it's not a fact. And having it stated as a fact on the wiki page, although we only guessed it, would be a bad thing to do. poke | talk 14:14, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

(EC)@poke: Actually RI can mean both of these afaik, but anyway, that RI part was totally not the point of my message in ANY way so it doesn't matter at all.

@Mei Fen: Exactly. ***EAGLEMUT*** TALK 14:22, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

The chances are as high as 100% tbh. ***EAGLEMUT*** TALK 14:23, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) Of course we can't turn speculation (unfortunately that's all it is, despite the research) into fact. I just wanted to clear up some of the confusion. Wouldn't a simple note please everyone and stop this already too long discussion? Something like "Due to them dropping Elementalist specific items, they are likely to be of that profession, although currently there is no way of knowing for certain." - Mei Fen 14:25, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

We don't want to document speculations. - J.P.Talk 16:03, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

That is pretty much the reason I asked Emily. ***EAGLEMUT*** TALK 16:10, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

The ONLY profession-specific drop are the tomes. And those are the ONLY ONES. We know for sure Shiro is an Assassin because he drops assassin tomes. The rest depend on the family, the army, the region, the party(like the Unique Oni Daggers and the creature itself, WiK greens that may drop from WiK npcs of a certain profession are linked to those creatures, not their profession. And the armor drops can contain any armor upgrade - ANY - regardless of profession. I don't know how many times you have tried, But I've killed lots of charr that dropped items of no attribute they had, like warriors dropping mesmer staves or necromancers dropping monk staves. It that hasn't happened to you yet, then either you lie, or you are having very, very strange luck. Without hard mode, it's impossible for players to know the profession of a hostile NPC that does not use skills of a certain profession. An elementalist boss serves nothing, since a boss can be of any profession, even if no creature of that family has that profession. The only thing left is asking the devs, and leaving its profession as 'unknown' or 'undefined' like with many other NPCs with no visible skills. MithTalk 17:33, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, if you have witnesses that yourself, provide me a screen please as I said (and dont forget on the common cross-profession items). On the armor part I agree, that is imo totally random and I never said otherwise. For your info I have currently recorded a total of 256 drops today, taken from all campaigns and random monsters, the results are: 177 Martial Weapons, 79 Caster Weapons, Out of all caster weapons, not a single one dropped with an incorrect attribute for the monster which dropped it. How is that a coincidence? Anyone who doesn't believe in my numbers can test for themselves. ***EAGLEMUT*** TALK 17:48, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Rather than calling them cross-profession items, say it's based on the skins. If a skin is tied to a single caster profession, it will (presumably) only drop from foes of that profession. 24.197.253.243 20:56, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that explanation is also totally correct. ***EAGLEMUT*** TALK 21:00, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Just to state my two cents then leave this monstrous wall of text: Due to Prophecies' system, I find it likely that all pre-searing skales are indeed elementalists. That is, if you look at the professions of most monsters in Prophecies (the exceptions being WM/Undead/SS... well, the armies) most are of a single profession. Take the Bog Skales (necromancers) for instance, their brethren, the Blighter and Icetooth, are also necromancers; take Abomination - all but the guild hall versions are necromancers, all hydras are elementalists, and so forth and so forth. We have 1 elementalist skale in pre-searing. Makes me think the others are indeed elementalists.
Along with this, we see that our good ol' elementalists utilize wands - or wand attacks - in that they are ranged but not arrows. While true this doesn't prove they are casters, it makes it highly likely.
So, personally, I say that short of asking a dev, it is impossible to figure out the profession (unless the what-seems-to-me-to-be-a-wild-goose-chase hunt for figuring out the drops of professions (I've seen professions drop caster objects of other professions, but no screenie so meh) proves to be fruitful) but the most likely case for this and the other skales in pre are: Elementalist. -- Konig/talk 12:59, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Your 2 cents make sense and I agree with that, however the reasons you listed are all just speculation and can't reveal a monster's profession with enough accuracy in most cases. My way, however, can reveal any caster monster's profession with 100% exactness just by killing it a few times. Just for your info, several people already tried to prove me wrong and none were successful, so if you don't have a screenie I must very highly doubt that has really happened. ***EAGLEMUT*** TALK 14:02, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

The problem is there is no proof that your method of profession detection is in any way accurate. You keep asking for screenshots to disprove your argument, but you place faith in a completely unproven theory about item drops; and using said unproven theory, you try to use it as "proof" of a monster's profession. That doesn't cut it on wiki articles. I'm not sure how you don't understand this yet, about ten different users have said the same thing already.

Somewhat related, but equally serious - who the fuck cares? Like, really? Why are you beating yourself up over the profession of a level 1 monster that doesn't use any skills? Is it really that hard to accept that there is no evidence either way and that leaving the section blank is the only viable course of action, short of pestering an ANet employee every time we get into a dispute about stupid bullshit like this?

Some things simply don't matter. As Rainith and others have tried to point out, it's sort of a joke that this talk page has like a billion times more talking than the article has article. I can't tell you to stop caring about dumb bullshit on wiki pages, but I can advise you to pick your battles carefully; running to ArenaNet for answers every time you and another user (or you and like 10+ other users) get into arguments is not the way to go about discussing topics. Emily has trivia and game info questions that were asked years ago that haven't been answered. Ask yourself - does it really fucking matter what profession River Skale Tads are? Is it really important enough to pester Emily about? Could you not think of any options (hint; wikis are built around consensus and compromise) that maintain the high standards of information quality without blowing the importance of the information out of proportion? -Auron 14:21, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Auron, since this is the first time I am asking Anet something and it wasn't even my idea, 70% of what you said has no real value for me. The rest was already answered and I won't bother to answer again since the discussion is over anyway. ***EAGLEMUT*** TALK 14:59, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Of course it is likely. Skales that are necromancers usually attack with dark damage, and pre-Searing skales attack with ice damage (at least the animations are ice damage, and they must be elementals, since they deal less damage against rangers), but it doesn't really matter how likely it is. We just cannot know without asking a dev. There is no data we can check, there is no hard mode, drops are not a reliable source, and there is definitely no libra/scan skill (although there should be!) so we cannot know without asking anyone that can check the data manually. It's as simple as that. MithTalk 21:05, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

The real proof

→ moved from Talk:River Skale Tad#The real proof

And you, Eaglemut? You've given us no screenshots, just accusations. --Kyoshi (Talk) 21:30, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) I ran a converse scenario in Minister Cho's estate, which is full of Sickened Guards. If everything drops martial weapons, then I couldn't base anything off of that. So, if I'm reading the drop data correctly, these guys would only drop warrior weapons and shields. Well, he dropped a caster style weapon.

By current theory, that means that Sickened Guards could be any profession! Or even casters! But they're not. -- Wandering Traveler 21:32, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

...That's why he based it on offhands not staves.--The Emmisary 21:34, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

....Back to Minister Cho. -- Wandering Traveler 21:35, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

ERRRR... Sorry to rain on everyone's parade but may i ask just what does it matter what proffession it is? It is a level 0-1 enemy with no usable skills, that most people can wand to death in 1 to 2 hits. The piece of information is pointless and based on conjecture and really doesn't need this amount of debate. -- Salome

It isn't but I just assumed if this overzealous debate didn't happen here it would happen on some other minor page.--The Emmisary 21:37, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) Sorry Traveler but I even gave Bo Staff as an example of exception item so it can't count. However I honestly thank you for at least trying to disprove me.

Kyoshi, I admit I cannot prove it with a "screen" but only numbers and other things, however, as I said I ask YOU to disprove since it should be easy from what you say.

Salome, that is true, however we are talking about the issue in general. ***EAGLEMUT*** TALK 21:42, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

I have to echo Salome's concern here. Don't people have anything better to do?--Lania 21:48, 08 August 2010 (UTC)

Speaking honestly, I don't :P ***EAGLEMUT*** TALK 21:52, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

There be a reason I have no life.

Anyways....I can't find anything conclusive, so I'm backin' off this one. Until I find something solid, its back to the sidelines. -- Wandering Traveler 22:00, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

The issue in general? Please provide me with examples of how this is a general issue? I'm not trying to be argumentative but I honestly don't see the utility of this debate. Almost every enemy in the game has skills which suggest its profession or drop relevant tomes. As pre is the only place without HM access, then only here is this issue of any pertinence and the only other enemies I can think off the top of my head, without clear proffs are ones with monster only skills (and even they drop tomes in HM) -- Salome 22:08, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, thanks again for trying Traveler. Salome, I was mostly referencing other pre creatures, and also, read my previous answer :P Edit: Another of this just popped in my head; could be useful for people who want to farm a specific type of a caster item. Example: I am rit so I want rit weapons. ***EAGLEMUT*** TALK 22:14, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm glad people are trying to figure out the intricacies of the drop system. Manifold 22:22, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up! ***EAGLEMUT*** TALK 22:42, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

It currently just seems like nit-picking on this particular page as opposed to figuring intricacies, but to be fair, after about ten minutes of testing I found I was getting the same results you claim to be getting. I'm still not sure that it's conclusive of these being elementalists since we don't actually know how the drop system works, and arguing this issue without that information is still speculation since skales may only be set to drop ele weapons, just like only enemies in Urgoz's Warren or the Deep can drop Zodiac weapons (iirc). --Kyoshi (Talk) 01:47, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, that is why I didn't test this on Skale, but on several random enemies across all campaigns as I pointed above. Skale weren't even the actual point of my research at all, I wanted to know how the drop system works and the results showed what I am trying to describe here. ***EAGLEMUT*** TALK 10:16, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm totally in sync with Salome here .. what's the point? I too find it interesting that casters only drop items of their own profession, but I fail to see the relevance of that finding on this particular page. Consider this for a minute: River Skale Tads have no profession, but in order to assign them a drop pattern at all, the devs were forced to choose a drop pattern of an existing profession or they would drop nothing at all. Possible? .. yes.--Manassas 14:33, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

I have already said several times I am not targeting Skale, but the issue in general, you could move the talk page to any single other monster in the game and it would not change my point. However, the considering part is somewhat interesting. Although I don't know of any single creature in the game that would not have profession and I think it isn't even possible due to the game mechanics, I must still agree that there is like a 0.01% chance of that happening which effectively negates my arguments. Good job, I hereby admit that due to this, my calculations are not enough to indicate any monster's profession with 100% accuracy because of the small chance there are actually monsters without professions. ***EAGLEMUT*** TALK 14:53, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

You want to state a fact while there is no fact at all. Nice logic. Koda Kumi 15:04, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, thinking about it again, this way you could also say River Skale Brood also doesn't have a primary profession but was just given random skills so he is stronger. Anyways, I am done arguing, thanks everyone for the fun lol. ***EAGLEMUT*** TALK 15:20, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

It does seem that all creatures must have a profession, even if they are altered to the point that they share none of the characteristics. If the drop system does work the way EagleMutt proposes (and I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary, although it was perhaps not worded very well originally and people got confused) it can help us identify the profession of some of the unknowns, which is a good thing for GW research. Manifold 15:24, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Note that all NPCs in Prophecies and Factions only have a single profession with very few exceptions (trolls). poke | talk 18:51, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Trolls, and other creatures with skills from multiple professions still only drop one kind of tome, and only have one primary attribute (as far as I've been able to tell), so they may still only have one profession. Even EoTN henchmen seem to be only one profession, as they aren't listed as "E/P" and such in the party window. Secondaries may not have any in-game meaning beyond what skills and attributes PCs have access to. Manifold 19:27, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Surely you could find out if it has a caster primary profession via the amount of damage dealt to it with a certain skill? --File:User Chieftain Alex Chieftain Signature.pngChieftain Alex 22:37, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Summing up this talk page

→ moved from Talk:River Skale Tad#Summing up this talk page

We have an enormous amount of evidence for the theory of evolution. Yet, we can't put that in textbooks saying that modern life was created through evolution. We can only say we have a theory that life is how it is because of evolution, and explain said theory and give the supporting evidence.

Now, this wiki is different than a textbook. We don't give out every possible comprehensive theory, even if it is logical. We provide facts. Which, this is not.76.2.21.99 07:18, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

^ This. In a coded world of ones and zeroes, there is always a definitive answer, and short of that answer, there is only guesswork. We don't put guesswork on pages and try to pass it off as fact. That's what Eaglemut has been having problems with since the very beginning of this ridiculous discussion. -Auron 08:16, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Guess we better change River Skale Brood to unknown profession then since it could be a Mesmer with Elementalist skills, and points in Energy Storage? I don't think Eagle's proposition is any more likely to be false than that is to be true, at this point. Almost anything and everything could be different from what it appears to us. Reasonable guesses are used for the majority of data on the wiki. Manifold 15:05, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

^This. Even more since River Skale Brood has 0 Energy Storage. ***EAGLEMUT*** TALK 15:09, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

@76, I'm not sure where you're from, though I do have a sad guess. Anyways, where I teach, evolution is the only definitive explanation for life in textbooks because no other idea fits the bill. Instead of a century's worth of data, it GW allows people to gather enough info over a week's time. If the correlation is impeccable, and we know the underlying causes, it does move into the 'fact' column. Now, where is this data, folks? ; ) G R E E N E R 15:43, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

"[...] to unknown profession then since it could be a Mesmer with Elementalist skills" – To kind of repeat what I said somewhere above; there are no NPCs with multiple professions except some very rare exceptions in Prophecies and Factions. poke | talk 15:59, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Are you sure that River Scale Brood don't drop mesmer tomes in HM? That sounds like a very strong assumption to me. — Raine Valen 16:05, 14 Aug 2010 (UTC)

Well, I don't know about that 'evidence', but I've been getting drops of any profession from ANY profession since day one. But even if that was true, pre-Searing is know for having its own little rules, so even if your prove something outside pre-Searing, that won't mean anything at all once you get in pre-Searing again. Same goes with drops under inscription and non-inscription system, which are know for having different drop rules. All I know is that even it's true that creatures of a profession are more likely to drop items from that profession, that doesn't mean that any drop is exclusive to a profession (excepting tomes, which have also their few exceptions). A drop may be exclusive to a few creatures, or a group, or a chest, or a race, or a place, and creatures that drop it may be all of the same profession, but that doesn't mean the drop is linked to the profession in any way under the server programmed mechanics. Only tomes are proven to behave like that (and we also have dev confirmation of that). MithTalk 22:14, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

"drops of any profession from ANY profession" That's not the full extent of what we're talking about. Primitive Staffs can only be tied to attributes belonging to Ritualists, and if we look at what's been recorded dropping it, it's all Rutalists. Amber Staffs, on the other hand, drop in attributes belonging to any caster, and it seems that they can drop from creatures of any profession. This seems to only be the case for staffs, focuses, and wands. Personally, I've been paying more attention to my drops since I read about this, and none of the hundreds of items I've gotten have contradicted this. I assume the several people who have read this page haven't found any counterexamples either. Time will tell if there are any exceptions, but it's looking pretty true to me so far. Manifold 23:09, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

I just finished looking through all 59 staffs listed on staff as only being tied to one profession's attributes. There are zero cases of any of them being reported as dropping from a profession other than the profession that the attribute(s) are tied to. Manifold 23:09, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Why are we still commenting on this page?--The Emmisary 23:46, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Because the issue is unresolved..? I don't think that could be more obvious, honestly. — Raine Valen 0:06, 15 Aug 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps I've gone blind but I do remember that the issue was put off until we get official confirmation or we get more data from the people who want to contribute to this theory. So I'll ask again, why are we still commenting on this page?--The Emmisary 00:09, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, you aren't. Anyways, the new question is, when some people disagree with changing the professions, if we should note this behavior on drop, so if you have any input on that, say it. ***EAGLEMUT*** TALK 00:19, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) (Reset indent)

"I just finished looking through all 59 staffs listed on staff as only being tied to one profession's attributes. There are zero cases of any of them being reported as dropping from a profession other than the profession that the attribute(s) are tied to." — Manifold

This strikes me as relevant to the discussion. Does it strike you otherwise? Are you suggesting that relevant information shouldn't be added to a discussion?

Also, I don't recall the issue being put off. I do recall someone suggesting that it be, but there's evidently not a consensus for putting it off, is there? I mean, information that wasn't previously taken into consideration is still showing up (read: drop research for every relevant staff in the game); surely you aren't suggesting that it doesn't matter because we're ostensibly waiting on a dev confirmation to do what we've done on so many other pages.

On that note, the arguments for Eaglemut's theory not being mainspace-worthy are full of disregard for precedent (though, in all fairness, I don't believe that precedent is an adequate reason for making a decision) – the "We're not 100% sure" argument fits several mainspace articles. I really don't want to dig up examples, but I have a feeling that you're going to claim that they don't exist; I'll look for a few while I wait for your response. — Raine Valen 0:25, 15 Aug 2010 (UTC)

Why doesn't this incredibly interesting debate move here? For all I care you can change the profession to mesmer/monk/elementalist. I just do think this page is recieving a ridiculous amount of attention for this "breakthrough" that doesn't belong on this page. Dig your heart out for examples. By the way, if 8 people doesn't make a consensus I don't know what does.--The Emmisary 00:32, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

For someone who doesn't care, you sure are policing this page pretty hard.

Also, Order of damage modifiers is one of my favorite examples of a useful and accurate page based on observation and deductive reasoning. Then there's the entirety of Feedback:Bug reports, all of which are based on the same, though, of course, they aren't mainspace pages; conversely, every documented bug on every page is based on observation rather than official confirmation; Reversal of Damage and Spirit Bond are two examples, off of the top of my head.

If you'd like to move all of the relevant information to the drop research project talk page, feel free to. — Raine Valen 0:41, 15 Aug 2010 (UTC)

Roflmao. i read back and just realized i started all this; so i say. DONT BURN ME ALIVE! Q_Q --Neil2250 00:54, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Hahah true, let's blame it on Neil guys! ***EAGLEMUT*** TALK 00:56, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Summing up (take two)

(Reset indent) Summing up this page...didn't actually sum up the page. The proposition is: should River Skale Tad be labeled as being elementalists?

Supporting arguments/evidence

• The tad is found only in pre-Searing
  • pre-Searing foes only have one profession
  • Outside of WiK, Prophecies foes have only one profession.
• Tads drop water staves, which are tied to an elementalist attrib.
  • 59 other staves tied to profession attribs drop only from foes with that prof.
• Tads do not drop other items that have ties to non-elementalist profs.
• Given that it's pre-Searing, is it even possible to find any better evidence?

Counter arguments/evidence

• Many weapons with prof-specific attribs do drop from foes of other profs.
• In the absence of SoC or tome drops, how can we be sure?
• In the absence of watching the foe use elementalist-specific skills, how can we be sure?

Did I miss anything in the four-walls-and-a-roof-of-text above?  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 16:06, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Woah, I am amazed someone went through such a textwall, thanks for taking the time.

Anyways, I'd say the main question is a bit more general: Are drops considered a valid evidence of a (caster) creature's profession?

To the side who says not, I'd like to point out nobody was able to deny my observations for the last three weeks, as you can see on this page. ***EAGLEMUT*** TALK 17:25, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Is it possible that...

• Several items are set to drop from enemies independent from their profession. (ex: some martial weapons, "more common" whites)
• Items only drop based off of the primary profession. (ex: Skill Tomes)
  • This Excludes the items from point 1 which drop regardless.
• All other items only drop from an enemy if they have the attribute that the item has or if the item's skin is tied to their profession.
• Unique items directly reflect the enemy's profession.
• Items with specific skins only drop from the enemies scripted to drop that skin. (ex: Zodiac)
• Item mods in no way reflect upon the profession of the enemy that dropped the item, they instead only reflect upon the item's allowed mods.

Just my overall assumptions from both reading the massive pagescraper of text above and by playing the game itself.--Neithan Diniem 17:37, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Although the attribute of a drop does not generally reflect on the profession of the dropper, Water Staff (core) seems only to be dropped by Elementalists. Not through the use of a general rule, but trough the drop history of the specific item in concern, it seems that the Tads must be elementalists. In other words:

• There is no general rule linking professions and dropped weapons.
• Specific items can have their own rules.
• Water staves (core) only drop from elementalists.
• Tads drop water staves (core).
• Therefore, tads are elementalists. Jafar 18:24, 13 November 2011 (UTC)