Guild Wars Wiki talk:Projects/Voice Actors

I'm sure...

I'm sure you've found this already, but good information may be found starting with Credits#Voice Actors. G R E E N E R 23:24, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

imdb has voice credits too, link goes to prophecies. Manifold 23:38, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Here is a list I had worked on awhile ago, good luck. Sounds Risky | 10:34, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

That's some excellent work, Risky. Should peobably have done this long ago. Backsword 23:03, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

You might want to start with this link... http://www.imdb.com/find?s=all&q=Guild+Wars -- Wyn talk 01:37, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Thank you Wyn. Guys, go aheaad and put ur name under the helpers list. haha, the more people the better. -- Wings of Blood 03:16, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Clarification

I'd be happy to contribute, but I don't quite understand what the project page is saying. Is the "Heroes and NPCs that need clarification" section incomplete, as in it needs to be filled with every voiced character? "Clarified" makes it sound like there's competing theories or something. Manifold 03:15, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Were you also hoping to find information on the voice actors in other languages? G R E E N E R 06:15, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Id say we need to cater to all the voiced actors in all the spoken languages.--Neithan Diniem 23:36, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree, so with that this should go under trivia and a seperate page with their voice actor, maybe IMOb links. idk -- Wings of Blood 03:14, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Meh, alright then.--Neithan Diniem 09:30, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Woah, did I miss the change in gameplan? While I do agree that voice actors deserve recognition, the NPC infobox is for concise and relevant information to the game. Voice actors are not relevant to playing, and adding the info there makes the rest less concise. G R E E N E R 22:22, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Format

I'd like to see links and a page for the voice actors set up, very much like Robin Atkin Downes. We can also use the imdb links provided by Risky, above, to link from the voice actor's page. G R E E N E R 21:56, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Sure man, I kinda dullified their pages, if you want you can fix them to a certain page, make a sandbox page, and I'll stop making actor pages, so we dont have alot of work to fix. haha Lucian Shadowborn 22:51, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Oh, no, I was referring on your talkpage to when the infobox was changed. Granted I could easily have missed something, I just don't know when voice actors were decided to be put into the infobox. If it's been agreed to, then ignore me! G R E E N E R 22:53, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

In all honesty, it hasn't been fully agreed to but there is no harm and it's not like I'm going to have revert wars. It really didn't change the infobox to where the code is totally different. The way I see it is; Wiki is used for documenting everything about Guild Wars and why should voice acting be left out, it shouldn't. I know that players don't care on a day-to-day basis of who played who but it is important. I don't like it under trivia but it's own actor page with some info. Besides, there was already a category created in 2008, should make a useless category into a useful one. Lucian Shadowborn 23:09, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

You claim "no harm" other than jumping up the job queue and adding unnecessary stress on the server. Whether it makes a visible change on pages, the server has to process the code change and look if the new variable exists ON EVERY PAGE where that template is used. There are reasons that we don't make changes to widely used templates until it's been fully discussed and agreed upon. -- Wyn talk 23:56, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Possible template

Trivia

• Trivia A
• Trivia B

{{Voice actor|Robin Atkin Downes}}

Comment

I created User:Tennessee Ernie Ford/Templates/Voice actor as an example of how the project can give voice actors slightly more prominence in the trivia section without giving them more notability than perhaps Trivia should. Feel free to use/steal/modify. Anyone working on this project has my permission to work on the page noted above, even though it's in my user space. (Obviously, it's going to need some formatting help — there's too much space above/below, for example.)  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 02:10, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I like it, should we get the community to agree on this or just use it? I'm kinda trapped. Lucian Shadowborn 02:47, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

(I took the liberty of removing the extra two : in your post. Please replace them if I did so in error.)

You have to create a template in mainspace (or move the one in my user space to mainspace). I think it would be ok to start using it right away:

• There seems to be a lot of support for including and (very modestly) highlighting the voice actor data.
• Once it's in the mainspace and in-use, people will help update the template.
• Use of this template will have no significant impact on the rest of the wiki; should people decide it doesn't belong, it would still be easy to convert the data into a standard bullet or some other format.

Good luck.  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 03:18, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

How about you try it on a few and see what people do? If I do one more mistake this next week I'll get banned for a couple days. Lucian Shadowborn 03:20, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Demo Page is where I used it. Lucian Shadowborn 03:34, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I updated Mhenlo and Mamp. Actor Nolan North shows the need to update the template to allow for other voices. I've offered a simple solution for dealing with it on the template page, [[Template:Voice actor]]. (Since the data, once entered, should be static, I don't see the need for more complex solutions that could auto-magically populate one type of article from the other without the need to repeat information.)  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 16:39, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I like it, though, an idea came to mind. With the template, why dont we make is appear like a regular trivia and once every voice actor npc has it, we change the template all at once? Or we can just implement the voice actor template as is, I have no problem with it. Lucian Shadowborn 16:44, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Nevermind the idea. I like yours instead. So now what do we do? Do we implement it or discuss it further? Lucian Shadowborn 17:19, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

This template is pointless. A mere note will suffice. Also, it is ugly, imo, and breaks the flow of the page like the bug and anomoly notes (which are supposed to break the flow of the page and stick out). This information is not needing a template, imo, or even the pages in this category (or the category itself) - we can merely link to the wikipedia article on the VAs, instead of having nearly blank pages on this wiki, with a link to the wikipedia article (which most people interested in the person would go to anyways). -- Konig/talk 21:35, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I changed it from green (which was a bit much) to blue, which I think is a much easier to look at color. -- Wyn talk 23:40, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

You're right, blue does look a whole lot better. It also matches the bullets that proceed it. When I put the template on a page, I put it on the bottom so it doesnt appear to mess with previous trivia. Do you all think thats a good idea?Lucian Shadowborn 23:44, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Work on a demo page (I believe you have one somewhere) rather than placing it wholesale into mainspace while the kinks get worked out. -- Wyn talk 23:53, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Will do, how should the demo page appear? Just trivia section (as it currently is) or an entire npc page? Lucian Shadowborn 23:59, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Copy an entire NPC page, so that you can see how well everything fits when it goes live. For comparison, you might want to demo two pages, e.g. a busy article (e.g. Mhenlo) and a simple one (i.e. one of the eotn Shrine NPCs).  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 00:25, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Will do Lucian Shadowborn 00:33, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

And done, the one thing i do not like is the large spacing between voice actor and colon and the spacing on top. Lucian Shadowborn 00:39, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I've removed some of the spacing (leftover from the use of the Anomaly template as the original source), which looks better. Other people are much better at wiki coding and design than I, so I'm hoping that one of them <cough>Wyn</cough> might step in.  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 00:53, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

New project. Voice actors

→ moved from Guild Wars Wiki talk:Community portal

It has come to my attention that every Hero and NPC character that has a voice, their voice actor is not listed. This should be one of the most important things listed. Help me with this project Guild Wars Wiki:Projects/Voice Actors -- Wings of Blood 23:05, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Seems like a notable idea. We could even have it integrated into the NPC infobox (and my variation of it as well). Tell me when you get it semi-completed or so. Id love to get working on that.--Neithan Diniem 14:09, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Feel free to create articles on the VAs, just as we have with other eople involved with the game. Don't have to be long, shouldn't really. Backsword 14:16, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm waiting for someone to edit the NPC box code to add the voice actor option. so that every npc and hero will get it. Should only pop up if we write

 |voice actor = [w:Amanda Tapping] 

but we need the corresponding code so that it'll work -- Wings of Blood 04:41, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Oh theres no problem with the code. I can do that at least. Ill mock something up quick...--Neithan Diniem 18:04, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Voice actors should go in trivia sections, not infoboxes (which are for important core points). This is how voice actors are currently documented - see Prince Rurik#Trivia. -- pling 18:09, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

I see no reason why they cant also be in the info box... Anywho, my edited NPC infobox now has support for a voice actor project. Should it really be deemed unnecessary to put the actor's name in the infobox... It can be removed I guess, though I see no reason why not. The voice actor box will appear once a name is placed into the voice actor variable ( |voice actor = <name> ). A overall page is needed though, to list all the voice actors once they are given credit so as to follow the format theme of the template.--Neithan Diniem 18:19, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

A voice actor is trivia. It doesn't help the gameplay experience at all. --JonTheMon 18:27, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Could we keep this conversation in one area? It's rather hard to follow when it's here, and on Template talk:NPC infobox, and Guild Wars Wiki talk:Projects/Voice Actors. G R E E N E R 20:18, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

The big problem you will have in the beginning is getting the information. You won't be able to do that without direct help from ANet, and given that most of the audio recordings are quite old, I doubt they will be able to help you that easily without much investigation work.. poke | talk 23:28, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

The discussion about my template is now out of the picture, since it seems that voice actors arn't something people want in the infobox. As for the names, perhaps emailing Arenanet for the names would work, as long as it is done correctly.--Neithan Diniem 23:30, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Most actors want to be attributed as often as possible, so you just have to find some of the people and they'll start naming names. Start with the list of voice actors in the end-game credits. Contact them via IMDB pro, the American Federation of Television and Radio Artists and/or the Screen Actors Guild. Naturally, it's easier if ANet's lawyers pull out the contracts that list the names, but it's doable if you want to invest the time.  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 23:39, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

I believe this is important, sure it'll take some investigationg but I believe that the actors should also have tribute to their accomplishments. Having it in either trivia or info box just makes sure that it is important. Not many gamers care but wiki is about documenting what people like but everything and with that logic, this should be documented. -- Wings of Blood 03:06, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Wiki is not just about documenting what people like but is for documenting everything. -- Wings of Blood 03:10, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

According to this thread, anet outsourced the voice acting, and they don't actually have a master list anywhere of who did what. "I have been informed by the very helpful Ms Gray that they are unable to give any information on the people who did the voices for their characters because the work was completely outsourced. As in, they actually do not know themselves. Or the impression given was that they do know and I'm not allowed that information." Manifold 04:16, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Someone at ANet should know the name of the company that handled the voice acting. Someone at that company had a list and in this day/age, the list exists some place. Or contact the voice actors we know about and ask them which voices they did. (Again, the unions are a good place to find contact information.) The actors should also know the name of the relevant companies (and there's a small chance they'll know the names of other actors).  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 04:29, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

If they don't, thats bad outsourcing. -- Wings of Blood 17:32, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

I went ahead and edited the info box, yeah I know not alot of people agreed but it honestly is a better idea to have their voice actor listed if put in and their own page with info regarding them and a link to wikipedia for more info. Go ahead and see what I did with Kormir or Zhed Shadowhoof. Lucian Shadowborn 23:20, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Um... that was ill advised. You don't just "do something" when community consensus is against it, and you also don't make changes to templates like infoboxes that affect hundreds of pages until you do have community consensus. -- Wyn talk 23:34, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Wyn, it does not effect all NPC pages but only the ones that put the code

 |voiceactor = Robert Akin Williams 

in their infobox. Everything remains unchanged. Lucian Shadowborn 00:16, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Any changes to the template have to be re-parsed. Yes, it does affect all NPC pages, through the queue. --JonTheMon 00:50, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Voice Actor

Simple yes or no will do, no explanation required. Do you (a person who uses wiki, who edits wiki, and wants whats best for the wiki want voice actors that belong with a hero or NPC to be put into the infobox instead of trivia or no?
Reasons for having voice actors in infobox include:

• Adds on to category for voice actor that has already existed since 2008.
• Removes unnecessary info that does not go with the hero or NPC but rather, their voice actor.
• Allows for a much more in-depth character page.
• The voice actors should be recognized as they are essential parts that make up Guild Wars.
  

Reasons for not having voice actors in infobox include:

• It adds more work-load on server. (At first but then server dies down)
• Too much work for users to contribute voice actors.
  

____________

1. Yes. Lucian Shadowborn 00:23, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
2. Neil2250 00:29, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
3. Ja. →[ »Halogod (talk)« ]← 02:08, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Vote!= consensus. ShadowRunner 00:35, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

That's just what I wanted to say. — Why 00:37, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Not really striking at the right times today, are you why? :/ --Neil2250 00:38, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

lolvoting --neshot. 0:38, 7 November 2010.

No voting. You know that. We discuss. The points that have been raised against putting this information in the infobox are sound, you need to come up with arguments against keeping the information in the Trivia sections. I personally believe it's trivia. And just so you know, the voice actors ARE recognized in the Trivia sections. This is about whether or not that information belongs in the infobox which is generally reserved for In game information that is of immediate importance to people coming the page. -- Wyn talk 00:39, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Had to do something that gets peoples attention. Let's discuss. Lucian Shadowborn 00:41, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Lemme get something clear, wyn, what are you disagreeing with either, the box's new section or the addition of the voice actor being added on the page itself?--Neil2250 00:44, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

The voice actors are already on the pages, under trivia, and that's where it belongs, not in the infobox. What I MOST disagree with however is Lucian ignoring comments by 4 people regarding this and simply doing it anyway. -- Wyn talk 00:46, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Not all, and there was only one in a random category. I put them all together. Besides, once you told me to stop, I stopped making changes. Lucian Shadowborn 00:49, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) Not all the voices were documented there before, (taking Mamp for example, "Revision as of 04:29, 5 November 2010 by Wings of Blood" ) Wings/Lucian did add them as a sort of the first step to this (now unwanted) info section. How about we just continue this, but NOT add them to the infobox, Why dont we just research the names, but put them in trivia? --Neil2250 00:52, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Meh, there is nothing wrong with them under Trivia, the community has done that with facts like this before but I can see it as a maybe compromise. We can still create the appropriate voice actor page I guess so that its part of the category. Though, with the infobox, it seemed more clear and crisp. Trivia contained unnecessary facts about the voice actor instead of the actual character, so we can just move those facts to their voice actor page I guess. Lucian Shadowborn 00:55, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Personaly, i quite like your idea, but nobody listens to me >.< --Neil2250 00:57, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Lol thanks man, I listen. The rest of the community just doesn't want it apparently. Maybe if this issue was brought up first hand when the wiki was created that could be a different conclusion. Lucian Shadowborn 01:01, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

You could point the idea over to the GW2 wiki, see if they like it. --Neil2250 01:03, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, we should do that, its some of the same people but it's new enough where it wont tax that wiki. Lucian Shadowborn 01:04, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately i cant go supporting till wednesday :< --Neil2250 01:07, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong, I encourage you to add the information if it isn't there, but add it under trivia. I'm not trying to stop your project, I think it's cool, I just don't like the fact you totally ignored what people said about adding it to the infobox, and went ahead and did it anyway. -- Wyn talk 01:15, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, it was 4-4... I shouldn't have done anything but you know, I'm glad I did, it could've been a whole lot worse. Lucian Shadowborn 01:27, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it belongs in the infobox. It would be the only piece of trivia/RL data that is in any infoxbox for anything on the wiki.

I'm all in favor of continuing the project. If you want to highlight the voice acting... how about creating a template that would add a bullet to the Trivia section, something like {{Anomaly}} — instead of the question mark, you could use a microphone (iirc, that's what the Hollywood Walk of Fame uses for radio actors). And, incidentally, I think that by gradually implementing standardization of how actor data is added, I think you are more likely to build consensus for making it more prominent down the road.  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 01:50, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I can see that. Im working towards that for GW2W. Lucian Shadowborn 01:54, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Though, I am the only one that has my name signed onto the project... Would help if a couple people did the same. Lucian Shadowborn 01:56, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Since I was asked to give my opinion on this, I personally think the voice actor name should go under trivia and not in the infobox. I also think the current line being used on the pages where information was added is too long, and should be something relatively simple like:

• Justiciar Hablion is voiced by Steve Blum.
  

The actor's name can either be a link to their IMDb page or a page on the wiki, though making a bunch of new pages for that doesn't seem to have much purpose. Sounds Risky | 05:39, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

The way that was originally done back in 2007 with Robert Akin is his own page with some info, links to his other characters, and a link to wiki. We could add a link to IMDb. There has already been a category created and new voice actors are being added to it but it's up to the folks. Lucian Shadowborn 15:08, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Eh, we might have made a mistake in 2007 and arguably, we can remove excess categories/articles. However, linking to IMDB/wikipedia isn't sufficient: a lot of the actors voiced multiple NPCs; we don't have control over the accuracy of those external sites (which sometimes list credits as e.g. various voices). In any case, we are talking about a dozen or two articles at most.  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 16:08, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, as seen, Steve Blum portrayed multiple characters. There isn't (4?) of steve blum pages roaming around but one. Though, I just added on to the category. It's at a point where it can all easily be reverted. Lucian Shadowborn 16:31, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

voice actors at all?

Nowhere else* do we cite the behind-the-scenes stuff or discuss the developers' credit. I don't think it's worth doing here, especially not prominently.
Why not also add who designed each map, who created each quest, who wrote each dialogue, etc?
*except in trivia where a name is a staff member's name | 72 | 18:18, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

We do all the time: we discuss viral marketing (Guild Wars Beyond), the rationale behind adding elements to the game (Hall of Monuments), the reason for changing an NPC's name (Sida), and other behind-the-scenes elements (who controlled The Frog). Quests/dialogue/maps are produced by a group and the development team is already credited on this wiki.

Voice acting is different: there's only ever one person responsible and they are not credited elsewhere (even IMDB and Wikipedia miss most details for video game voice actors). I'm not interested enough to do any of the research, but I applaud those committed to documenting this part of the game. I agree that the proper place for such data is Trivia.  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 18:36, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree, it belongs with trivia. Lucian Shadowborn 19:30, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

"Nowhere else do we cite the behind-the-scenes stuff or discuss the developers' credit" We do when we know it. See Deactivating N.O.X., the other *.O.X. quest pages, and we might have the knowledge noted in Trivia for who made other things. I know John Stumme made The Flight North, and Linsey Murdock was kind enough to list the works she has done (so if those things don't have the note, they could be added).

Anyways, I'd like to ask: Are all the pages in this category, and the category itself in fact, necessary? Isn't it simpler to simply link to their wiki page, since most people going to these VA pages will end up going there for more information than their GW-related roles? Seems pointless to me. -- Konig/talk 21:24, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Also, I find the use of {{Voice actor}} to be both ugly and pointless. Why was that even made without any discussion (that I can find) on this page? I noticed it was discussed on the project page, but there's more discussion here it would seem. Usually things should be brought up in the place(s) of most discussion... -- Konig/talk 21:39, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Ehh, you're right. Want to simply make the template into a more stream-like thing or just make it so it appears as a regular note? Lucian Shadowborn 22:00, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

At that point, then the template would further delve into the realm of "useless" and you might as well just delete it. I actually say delete it anyways, in fact. Simply not necessary for such a minor (read: one small line) note. -- Konig/talk 22:07, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Then, it should remain the same but put at end of trivia. Big whoop. I can see where the actor pages are flawed but I personally think a uniform voice actors notes should suffice. Lucian Shadowborn 22:09, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

There is absolutely no point in the template. If it is made to resemble a note (i.e., utilizing a * to make a dot then who the voice actor is), then there's no need for the template. If it is kept the same, then it's just a fancy dancy way to doing the exact same thing. Thus, pointless. Sure, it's nice to have stylized things, but come on... such a minor note which is no different than every other note and trivia piece, why should it get a fancy form? Why would it need a fancy template? It doesn't. It's just pointless... -- Konig/talk 22:16, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

It isn't the same note as others. Guild Wars lacks lacks credits for voice actors, this is giving the credits. Don't you think it's important to give credit to where credit is due? Lucian Shadowborn 22:22, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Templates are always used and useful for consistency. If we can also use it to make things look nice (rather than the same ol' bullet points), then all the better. Unlike most trivia, this one will appear on every NPC article whose voice is heard in the game. It's not just about style, but if you don't like the way it looks, help make it look better (change the spacing, rules, colors, icon, etc). I prefer using a stylized icon, but maybe you're right that it would be fine with just a regular bullet. Regardless, the template is important to make it easy to use the same language and appearance for every voice actor note.  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 22:30, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I cannot see the point in this particlar template. It is the same note as others - it's no different than the trivia note at the bottom of the three M.O.X. quests which gives credit to who designed that particular question. Consistency? It's already consistent with the other notes - both under the Notes sections and under the Trivia sections, including other VA notes. Those that aren't, you can just take a minute or two to edit - if even. At this point, it's simply stylization. And while, yes, that's nice, it isn't necessary - especially in this case. -- Konig/talk 22:45, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Lucian: "Don't you think it's important to give credit to where credit is due?" No, not in the slightest. We're not here to give the voice actors or anyone else involved in making the game a pat on the back. They did their jobs and presumably got the recompense they agreed to when hired. We're here to document the game. Who did voices for what NPCs is a piece of trivial information about the game (hence trivia) which some users may potentially find interesting, which is the only good reason for including it. (EDIT for clarity: I am in favor of including the information. I am against giving it any special formatting to try to draw extra attention to it. It's a trivia note; it should be a plain and simple trivia note.)

TEF: "Templates are always used and useful for consistency." That's simply not true. If it was, every article that falls under a formatting guideline would be wall to wall templates. Templates should only be used when they make editing simpler, not more complicated. - Tanetris 22:51, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I personally don't see the harm in allowing this project. I thought the template was actually pretty cool. -- Wyn talk 23:09, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

My apologies for poor use of grammar. What I meant by "always" was frequently and all over the place rather than 100% of the time. Infoboxes, navboxes, Anomalies, Bugs, skill tables, {{STDT}}, NPC locations, and so on. So, it's simply true that templates are always used and useful, even if, in the more complex and nuanced world, only some things are worth templatizing.

I think in this case, it does indeed make editing simpler: this is a rare variety of trivia (for this wiki) in which the type of data is identical for all pages that the bullet would appear: it's always about the voice actor, it's always a name (with a link to an internal article or one at wikipedia or imdb); it will almost always have links to other NPCs that are voiced by the same person. Most other trivia doesn't fall into a recognizable pattern that will hold true across more than a few articles. Accordingly, this is a near-perfect situation for using a template over copy-paste.  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 00:28, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

(Reset indent) It's easier for those who are frequent users of the wiki. But tell me, which would a person not adept in the use of templates or wiki coding find easier: {{voice actor|Nolan North}} or

• This NPC is voice acted by Nolan North.
  

I find the later more likely to be used by the average wikier. For things that you listed - navboxes, anomalies, bugs, skill tables, infoboxes - the template is far easier to use. This? It's just a choice between stylized and consistency with other boxes. We don't have a template to show who designed what for the quests, missions, etc. We merely have notes - like the later example above - for those we know (again, I bring up the three "Deactivating *.O.X." quests). It looks far cleaner, imo, to use the later of what I showed and outside of "it looks pretties and more unique" there's no benefit to it. The consensus was a vast majority against a stylize idea I had - and I was told time and time again in the past (one such case - "We are not here to advertize and make things more interesting though, we are here to document the game.") that the wiki is for documentation, not entertainment. This is such a case. -- Konig/talk 01:06, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm not laughing when I see the template, so it's not a source of entertainment. Lucian Shadowborn 01:25, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

So Konig, is this just a case of sour grapes? People didn't like your idea, so now you are going to kill someone else's? Documenting the game is fine, and should always be the prime priority, but at this point in this wiki's life (as well as the game's) the vast majority of the documentation is done (note, I didn't say all). I don't see any reason to not add some style to that information, regardless of Pling's opinion. -- Wyn talk 02:03, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

No Wyn. It's a case of consistency. This is a wiki for documentation not entertainment, not stylization. If it was someone else's ideas, I'd say the exact same thing. (and for the record, there were at least 3 people for the link I provided, I quoted Poke). @Lucian: The template is done to make something look better than it would be otherwise: That's stylization. Stylization is a form of entertaining, thus entertainment. -- Konig/talk 03:09, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, see, I guess that's where we differ. I personally like a little style. I think it's what makes something worth coming back to time and time again. Cold hard facts are fine and dandy, but if I can get them in a prettier package, I say go for it. I mean, otherwise, I'd still be playing NetHack. -- Wyn talk 03:20, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm for the stylized version myself, if indeed it is going to be in the trivia section (I'm for the infobox, but the majority rules). I like seeing facts about games, be they lore, mechanic, or functional facts, be more than just a * on the screen. Its like reading a MSDOS screen that way. Bland. If the argument is that stylized = entertainment = useless, then why are userpages allowed, or for that matter the main page being "stylized" for the holidays and events? If you wanted pages to not be stylized, then you would not have any colorful boxes to depict the information, no images to display it. It would be a tasteless list of facts that no one would want to read. Is this a minor thing? Yes. But Id rather we take the step and make the pages be something people want to go see again that just leave be. And for the record, I actually enjoyed your depiction of the Mad King Thorn.--Neithan Diniem 04:58, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm with Tanetris and Konig here. I agree that adding information about voice actors is part of our mission of documenting the game; it is however, just as Tanetris said, pure trivia information and as such belongs nowhere else (especilly not in the infobox). Being just trivia information it has a low importance in regards to the rest of an article. As such, any kind of formatting draws more attention than appropriate to it, and makes people skip actul important things (like the notes section) for this simple “nice to know but nothing else” information.

Using a template makes absolutely no sense, neither for stylization (per reasons above) nor for keeping the text consistent. We have a high number of common phrases that appear on many articles and I don't remember using any template just for that. Usually, when people add information to a page there are two possibilities on how this works: Either they have seen something like that before and copy the code/text directly from that page and just ammend it, or they come up with it themselves and just write it down the way they think it would be okay. But in no situation they want to add information and magically use an existing template to add the information, that just doesn't happen.

Just use a simple text, we do that all the time and it is the most natural thing we can do on a wiki. I have said it before, we are not a database and our content is not targetted to being read by some machine either, so we don't need a consistent format all the way. The wiki provides a very simple formatting feature that makes it very easy to just enter the text the way we want and we should not destroy this easiness by overcomplicating the simple idea of adding content with some random templates that do not provide anything.

And I blame everyone actively participating in the project or that template's creation (or its deletion defense) for highly spreading this discussion even more than already necessary. It is very obvious that the main discussion happens here, and that any other location is not relevant given that a small fraction of people will be involved.

Konig: “and for the record, there were at least 3 people for the link I provided, I quoted Poke” – I don't get that reference. poke | talk 08:40, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

What poke said. The information is almost not worth mentioning, but if someone wants to mention it, feel free to add it to the trivia section (like any other trivia note). It doesn't need its own template and it definitely doesn't need a unique style. It's simply trivial information and nothing more - so treat it as such. -Auron 08:44, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Being wrong is my lifestyle (see above), but I think I'll be right this time and agree with poke. | 72 | 13:29, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

"And I blame everyone actively participating in the project or that template's creation (or its deletion defense) for highly spreading this discussion even more than already necessary"Then move the discussions to the appropriate place. It'll leave a redirection link for any interested people so the discussion can go on without being spread out. Also, supporters are not the only people that are "to blame" for the discussions continuing in multiple places. A discussion can only exist if there is dispute or agreement, and both of those are present.--Neithan Diniem 14:56, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

And here I was going to avoid commenting on this any further... Meh. "I don't get that reference." - "I was told time and time again in the past (one such case - "We are not here to advertize and make things more interesting though, we are here to document the game.")" to which Wyn responded, and I was saying that there was more than just Pling telling me documentation>entertainment - the quote in the post Wyn responded to was of what you said. @Neithan: This discussion is in three places, the supporters went ahead with the template after discussing it in a place of minimal observance while this discussion went on, and Wyn, a supporter, began a discussion on the template's page in regards to its deletion tag which was already being discussed elsewhere. True, both disputes and agreements are present, but the ones spreading the discussion to three places rather than two are the supporters - and in fact, discussion continues in one of the two older locations due to supporters being the only ones to discuss there, with absolutely no link from this discussion to that one that I can see (I was only able to find it by following the template). -- Konig/talk 15:38, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I like the template, just because it's a nice a little touch, and I don't believe it's going to be a "slippery slope" or is too distracting, but it's not a huge deal to me. I think we can agree on keeping the information in trivia, though, right? Manifold 15:43, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Question for you: If Voice actors - a very minimally important piece of information - has a template and a unique style, why should anything of greater importance not have a unique style, in turn, a template? But by the time we do all that, then the page will be filled with templates. If they're not allowed to have templates, why should the voice actor note? -- Konig/talk 15:48, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

It's not a matter of "why shouldn't everything else be allowed to, then?" to me, but rather "why not, since no one is going to retroactively go and make templates for various other kinds of trivia?" I don't like the idea that everything should be kept at exactly the same level, that nothing shouldn't be just a little bit more than everything else. But again, I don't have really strong feelings either way about the template, I just thought that the discussion could use a moderate viewpoint, and try to establish that template or no, this will be included in the trivia section. Manifold 16:02, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

If you want the voice actor information to be a little more prominent, just make it the first trivia note (or put it higher). It doesn't need a dedicated template. --JonTheMon 16:18, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

"why not, since no one is going to retroactively go and make templates for various other kinds of trivia?" Tell me, do you have proof no one - for instance, Falconeye who makes several changes at once, sometimes many of which are redundant or unnecessary, or just should be discussed first - would go and create templates for, say, paragraphs of lore, or lists of notes/trivia rather than an individual trivia note? Because if you do, I'd very much like to see this. "that nothing shouldn't be just a little bit more than everything else" That isn't the case. The case is that this particular information doesn't deserve to be held in greater opposition than the rest. Want to know something that was given it's own template rather than utilizing the notes section? Armor ratings. It is these things which deserve templates outside navs and tags. Not one-line information which is hardly helpful except for "fun facts." If the template in question was about a way to reformat the lists under Notes and Trivia, then depending on how it looks, I'd be all for it. But for a single trivia note? No. It's just silly in every way I look at it. -- Konig/talk 17:46, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Once again, you let your personal bias show Konig. The fact that you find this information "hardly helpful" or of little interest, doesn't mean that everyone does. I personally find most of the lore you add to stuff to be pointless and irrelevant, while I find this information to be interesting. I find it unfortunate that you put your interests so far above everyone else's, since it's pretty obvious that this information is of enough importance to some few to have created a project for it. I don't know why this has become such an issue, and at this point I'm actually sorry I opposed putting it in the infobox. -- Wyn talk 19:47, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Wow, i never expected this much "discussion" over something so trivial. Personally I kinda agree with Wyn... and at the same time, I really could care less if they put in a full fledged template for voice actors because it will only affect NPC's that even has a voice, which in total ratio is low, won't affect "that" many pages, and most won't notice the change. Personally I find the information very interesting so yeah, I'm biased... but I don't give a damn if it's in a template or a lonely trivia note as long as the information is there. Either way, it really won't affect anything of importance, hence all this discussion just seems so pointless. --Lania 20:08, 08 November 2010 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Perhaps we can return to the original goal of the project and the ideals of the wiki, rather than the meta-issues of people's motivations or what might happen down the road. The questions seem to be:

1. Is there strong interest in documenting which actors voiced which NPCs? Answer: yes, apparently as much interest as there is in certain types of lore or dialogues. (i.e. some people very interested, others very bored with it).
2. If we document it, is there anything different about this type of trivia from others? Answer: it's the only type of trivia that can (in theory) be 100% confirmed (vs. most other trivia that cannot). It's the only type of trivia that can easily be presented in standard way (because the data type is always the same: actor name + link [+ optional link to other NPCs voiced by actor]); most trivia can (and should) vary in its appearance.
   • What is the best way to standardize the presentation of this information? Answer: some people prefer using a template (so it's easy to edit every page as the project evolves). Others seem to feel a template is overkill (and since I don't understand that argument, perhaps they can edit this parenthetical to clarify).
3. Does this type of trivia deserve any prominence over other types? Answer: some people think yes (it's more interesting); others say no, we don't give special credit to the developer who designed Quest A or Dungeon B, why should this one aspect of the game get more attention?
   • If we do highlight the info over other trivia types, how should we go about it? Some people like using a special icon, along the lines of Anomaly or Bug. Some think placing it first or last in the Trivia section is sufficient. (And, obviously, this doesn't include the fact that some people don't want to see this trivia appear at all.)

Since there's a lot of interest in voice actor data, I'd like to see us move on and focus on what's the best way to present it.  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 20:19, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I'd go with the path of least resistance (maybe). Make it a template but don't make it look any more special than any other trivia notes such that it makes it easy to standardize everything, and it doesn't stand out more than anything else. A short note with the name of the voice actor+link, and any other NPC's the actor give voice to. I would personally like to see it more prominent, but I think keeping the "look" of a regular trivia note while using template to ease standardizing is a good compromise. Also it's less work for editors but a little more work for the server. --Lania 20:33, 08 November 2010 (UTC)

That just.... sounds not good. Templates are less newb-friendly, so why use them when it's just text? Yes, keep the info a trivia. If it's stylized, then use a template; otherwise, just text. --JonTheMon 20:48, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

@Wyn: "I personally find most of the lore you add to stuff to be pointless and irrelevant, while I find this information to be interesting. I find it unfortunate that you put your interests so far above everyone else's, since it's pretty obvious that this information is of enough importance to some few to have created a project for it."Firstly, there are three core foundations to a good game: Mechanics, story, and appearance. Lore is just another name for the story, and VA is just one aspect of appearance. I do not put my interests above everyone else's - stop making it seem like that, because I'm pretty damn sure you know that's not the case. I never said the project was irrelevant, in fact I've point blank told you the opposite. I find this project to be very interesting, but I greatly disagree with the use of the template and I see no need for the individual and minimal pages of the VAs themselves.

@T.E.F.: "it's the only type of trivia that can (in theory) be 100% confirmed" Technically, all trivia notes either are or can be confirmed with enough digging in the right places - it just has to be done differently than with the VA (in most cases, pestering the devs for an answer). "And, obviously, this doesn't include the fact that some people don't want to see this trivia appear at all." I thought it seemed pretty clear that there are very few - if any, in fact - disagreements with listing VA as a whole. It's just particular proposals for how to do that with people disagree with each other on. -- Konig/talk 23:26, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Pretty much the discussion has fallen to "Template or No" and "Icon or No." Everything else about it has been accepted by the consensus. The note will be in trivia, not the infobox. In my opinion, the template is neither effective NOR ineffective, and the icon allows for separating the VA from the rest of the trivia. the VA Project is a unique project, the voice actors have never been credited in any way negligible so far, and VAs, along with particular Quest and Dungeon developers, are a unique type of trivia. In my opinion then they deserve some division of some type from the rest of the trivia. The Icon does so. If, for whatever reason, it is decided not to have the icon then fine, but give another idea to do something more for these accreditations. Crediting people for bringing some new aspect to the game in my opinion is superior to trivia, and I would actually be slightly insulted if no credit were given or even if it were just thrown on the wayside. Thats my 2 cents on the deal.--Neithan Diniem 16:08, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

"the icon allows for separating the VA from the rest of the trivia" That is precisely my objection to it. Applying special formatting to this particular type of trivia note and not others leaves it feeling out of place. Frankly, I find all this talk about making sure voice actors get "proper credit" completely misguided. As I said above, the only good reason to include the information on the wiki is that users may find it interesting. Those that do will find it interesting whether it's shoved in their face or not, and those that don't won't find it interesting whether it's shoved in their face or not. Same as any other trivia. Simple. - Tanetris 16:45, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

i don't see what the problem with the icon is. It's fairly well chosen, low contrast and unobtrusive. It wouldn' be noticable for people uniterested in trivia, and help those readers who are more visual, and likes visual cues. Not everyone enjoys large textmasses as much as some editors. (and i think that no coincidence. And people like to write more than others like to read their empty text.) Backsword 22:15, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't really want to do that, but if we get an icon for voice actors, then I want an icon for when a name was based off some person, an icon when a name is a reference to some famous quote, and basically an icon for every single type of trivia, because I don't see how voice actors are a more important trivia information than others. poke | talk 22:53, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

That's because unlike other types of trivia, which never makes an appearance in the game like it never says in the quest log that this name is a reference to blah blah blah, voices are part of the game. That fact alone separates voice actor trivia from other types of trivia. I think I said this somewhere... but now I can't remember where. --Lania 23:36, 09 November 2010 (UTC)

Neither appear in-game (I don't expect to see Robin Atkin Downes's face to pop up during Ascalon mission cutscenes any more than I expect an SNL skit to pop up in the middle of doing Luxon quests), but both their effects are there if you know what you're looking/listening for. Unless you have the sound off. Which is not exactly impossible. - Tanetris 00:46, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

It would be a tad bit odd to see Robin's face pop-up. Though, I can see a joke where its a pic..sort of like a old corny batman movie where the logo flashes in the screen...- Lucian Shadowborn 00:49, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

(Reset indent) You know, no one has countered Tanetris's and poke's arguments so far and they did make quite a few solid ones. - Reanimated X 04:27, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Proposal

I would like to propose we consolidate this discussion by moving all of the discussion here to the Project talk page, where it actually belongs. Any objections? -- Wyn talk 21:11, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Voice responses

I've noticed that the voice responses of generic NPCs has been left out of the list. Technically, these are VA - albeit harder to find - so they should be added. Would add myself, but not sure how the folks usually working on this project would prefer them listed. I know that there's voice responses for dwarves (I recall two accents, at least), shining blade/ebon vanguard (it's shared), charr, norn, and asura. Don't think there are more, but I may be wrong. 04:19, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

This is an example of why <i don't think the text should be standarised. ANother is that a character may have had more than one voice actor over time. Backsword 04:32, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

This project was originally intended for characters that were in cinematics. They speak. Voice responses are good though, especially in EoTN. Perhaps listed under the corresponding VA page but not the character page. - Lucian Shadowborn 04:34, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

VAs for standarised groups should go on that groups page, not on the induvidual characters pages. That's how we've done it with transiptions of those voice responses. Backsword 04:42, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Then that's how it will remain. Standardization is only for characters that have spoken parts and exchange a cinematic conversation with another. And, there's not alot, if you look on the project page, some of the characters listed will be ruled out. - Lucian Shadowborn 04:56, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Though, try something up in a sandbox for this project, it could be an awesome idea just waiting to be born! - Lucian Shadowborn 05:17, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

"ANother is that a character may have had more than one voice actor over time." Jalis Ironhammer is the only one I can think of, outside possibly the PCs. As for the rest, I agree that they should be put on the group pages - but the template wouldn't be useful as is (another reason to use text rather than the template), as there would be multiple NPCs. -- Konig/talk 19:29, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

That's three cases just there, plus whatever others we come across in the future. There is alos the case where we have a single article for two characters, eg. when there is a female and male version. Backsword 22:11, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Proposal 2

→ moved from Template talk:Voice actor

This post on the projects page gave me an idea that I'd be quite fine with for utilizing a template for. Rather than a template for just Voice Actors, a template of crediting - that is, who designed the topic of the article, who VA's the NPC topic of the article, etc. That way, it would be a template that is used for more than a single note and would provide a wider use. I think that would be a fair compromise - keep the template, but make it more useful to deem its existence. -- Konig/talk 19:26, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Now, this I could get on board with. G R E E N E R 19:33, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Brilliant! A multi-use template that will get a lot of important uses! --Lania 19:42, 09 November 2010 (UTC)

(Edit conflict)

I support making the template more useful for crediting generally (a very good idea, Konig).

Before doing so, I think we should have a robust discussion about what should' and should not be credited, otherwise I fear we'll end up with dozens of pages in revert wars about trivia. I don't expect we can figure out an ideal guideline, but I think we can establish a reasonable starting point and allow it to evolve over time. People have very strong feelings about trivia (as we've seen); let's make it easy to allow the those with divergent opinions to work together.

So, something along the lines of {{credit|Voice|Name}} and {{credit|Design|Name}}? Though at first I wasn't a fan of the microphone being used, it has grown on me, especially now that it's blue instead of green. I would rather keep the little symbol idea, and have the template call a different design related to the different contributions. And yes, detailing what to document needs a lot of discussion G R E E N E R 19:51, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

What Greener said.  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 19:53, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

(Reset indent) I was thinking about this on my way to class, and I think this is what I got (similar to Greener's idea) - Template name: Credit; Parameter 1: Job (Voice actor, Designer, whatever else is deemed reasonable to credit); Parameter 2: Person's name (I disagree with auto-linking as I still disagree with the use of small VA pages but I'll concede that argument if there's little support against them); Parameter 3+: Additional workers. The third (and more) parameters would only be used for pages like Jalis Ironhammer, who, I believe, has two VA's (one for Prophecies one for EN - he at least sounds different), or for the group pages with voice responses, or the quests/missions with multiple designers and so forth. No matter how I think about it, it would still have to be one use of the template per job.
An alternative to those parameters would be to set so odd is job, and even is name; but then if there's multiple of a single job, they'd be on different lines.
The ideal way to do this, imo, would be to set it up to be like a small chart - that is, ideal in fitting all information with one template use, but that probably won't look too good.
I'm still not a fan of the unique icon, but so long as it doesn't stick out like a sore thumb (as it did when this template was made) and differs based on the job parameter (with each icon not sticking out) , than I'll concede that for the sake of progression. Basically I'd like to see the following for the icons: Not too big, no odd coloring, and lines up with bullet points (at a public crappy computer which isn't displaying icons for some reason, so cannot say whether the current version after changes doesn't strike my ire too much). -- Konig/talk 21:49, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Why on earth would you need a template for that? It's even less stadarised than just voice actor, which in itself is no standarised enough for a template to be a good idea. Backsword 21:55, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Personally, I'd prefer no template at all still. I was merely trying to make a compromise (I don't know why this was moved over here while the other discussions from the template's talk were not). -- Konig/talk 23:28, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

I moved it 'cause I was tired of chasing this conversation around through pages, and yes, I know I contributed to the spread despite my early refrain not to. G R E E N E R 23:34, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with "no template", primarily for the reasons I explained above (if you didn't read it, make sure you do now!).. poke | talk 23:37, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

I understand your reasons, Poke, though I think you took your example a bit too much to the extreme. Personally I see some potential in a few of the types of trivia getting a special marker, if only for small aesthetics (yes, those are subjective). How about this. For those interested in trying to make a template which can accommodate various contributions, while being fully aware that the template may never be implemented.

My reasoning is this:

• Gathering the data alone is documenting the game, which I believe most here would be on board with.
• Creation can be unpredictable, and many of us may be surprised by what is developed. Case-in-point, I was very close to dissenting to a template when the trivia was all green, but once the microphone was made blue and the text black, I found it agreeable.

I see no harm in the attempt to create something better. For those interested in the challenge, I hope the community can encourage them to create and present to us their best attempt. G R E E N E R 23:53, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

“though I think you took your example a bit too much to the extreme” – no, not that; I meant my wall of text above that. poke | talk 00:12, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

I love this idea, one problem comes to mind. Should we just creat a project as an umbrella term (ie: Essential Aspects) then sub projects like (/voice actors), (/dungeon developers)? I don't know and maybe this could be more complicated but hey, discuss. - Lucian Shadowborn 00:15, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

That is a much better use for this template in my opinion, as the single template now functions for more uses and covers more information. Ii I were making this template for personal use, I would have the icon change to match the profession of the accredited person, though keep the blue color for each icon. Have a #switch var for that. As for who/what is credited, Id suggest it be simplistic. General Anet staff are already covered for the most part, so every single quest/dungeon need not be credited (though if the info is known for certain, perchance). Specialty quests made by particular people (such as the WIK or *.O.X quests), Dungeons following the same pattern, voice actors, and possibly NPCs named for real life people. Last one there is an iffy. Keep the text short and sweet, just the general info pertaining to that page. So with the VAs, no listing what other characters they voiced, just the necessary info.

{{credit|<type>|<name>}}

{{#switch: {{{type}}}
| Quest = [[quest icon]] This quest was designed by
| Dungeon = [[dungeon icon]] This dungeon was designed by
| Voice = [[voice icon]] This <character/NPC> was voiced by
| Named = This <character/NPC> was named after
}} [[{{{name}}}]]

As for the thing with the short VA pages, why not have them all on a single page, and the links go to each section? That would drastically reduce the used data space. If a lot of info has been collected for the VAs, then a separate page would seem more appropriate. If their going to follow the current majority, then Id say nay. Also, the idea of the umbrella thing is good, I think, as it will tie all the projects to the single credit project.--Neithan Diniem 00:27, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) Ah, sorry poke, I did miss that. I do not fully believe that an icon will somehow make the rest of the page less important (noticed? considered?) than the rest of the page by casual readers. This is why trivia goes at the end. I do believe that it will make this particular trivia more noticeable than other trivia, which I see as okay. As for consistency, I agree that a template is not needed for such. I've done enough with NPCs to know that copy-paste works well. On the other hand, I find templates such as disambigs useful when stylization is concerned, though you have argued against stylization.

As for easy of use by contributors, I keep going back to my experience with the prereq template. I've tried to figure it out, tried to guess what it means by secondary/primary (do those refer to the profession or the quest?), and I've ended up being more frustrated than anything else. Is this a vote for or against the template, interpret it for yourself. Again, I'm reserving judgment until I see what can be produced. And once again, sorry for the spreading of this conversation G R E E N E R 00:40, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

For Neithan's coding example, replace "This quest"/"This dungeon"/"This <character/NPC>" with {{PAGENAME}} - so that it is automatically fit, thus we can remove the quest and dungeon parameters, merely making it "Design" instead - which means that specially designed NPCs can be fit into that as well. I would also be against auto-linking the name, as in some cases, it might be preferred to link to wikipedia instead. In regards to the VA pages: That would be better, I'd think, but then redirects would be needed if going by the coding example above. As for the named, I was thinking about what to do for that as well, but wasn't sure since that's more of a reference than a credit. -- Konig/talk 02:20, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

I've been thinking, as I've been watching my SGU episode, will the affected code change the picture? For voice actor there's a mic; what about other umbrella terms? Is there a way that once imputed, it changes pic? - Lucian Shadowborn 02:46, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Nevermind, the code answered it for me. - Lucian Shadowborn 02:47, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

So you'd rather the template, if used, be something like this?

{{#switch: {{{type}}}
| Quest = [[quest icon]] {{PAGENAME}} was designed by
| Dungeon = [[dungeon icon]] {{PAGENAME}} was designed by
| Voice = [[voice icon]] {{PAGENAME}} was voiced by
| Named = [[named icon]] {{PAGENAME}} was named after
}} {{{[[name]]}}}

--The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Neithan Diniem (talk).

(Reset indent) Except for the brackets around the name - as that would be pointless how it is, and the other way would allow a slight altering to the line (for instance, have it "<NPC name> was named after <person> of the x community" or "<NPC name was named after Game Designer <person>") in order to show who that person was. Also, if we do that last one, it would then have to not be linked, so that we can link to user-space or what-have-you. -- Konig/talk 03:46, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

So, with the already made voice actor pages.. I'm fine with deleting them, we can link the name to wiki. The VA pages already do that and it will reduce the number of pages. Then create a master category... not a category but a page with the character name and actor. - Lucian Shadowborn 03:52, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Ah, darn those four bloody tides, eluding me that one time... Anywho, link was to show that you would link the name at least, not everything in there. Adding anything you want in there is perfectly usable. You would simply link the name in the added part: "<NPC name> was named after [[<person>]] of the x community" or "<NPC name was named after Game Designer [[<person>]]" like that. Also, if were making new things like that, have the template also add a category tag to the page for the said accreditation.--Neithan Diniem 04:02, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Konig

I think alphabetizing them would be helpful, can you do it? I'm researching more voice actors and cross-referencing them. Had to create this 'cause I could't find your idea in here and my eyes are just too worn out to read text.. Do you like the sorting through campaign, better than a wall of links imo? - Lucian Shadowborn 00:19, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

could just table them and add sorting, Ill do that easy for you.--Neithan Diniem 00:27, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Ok thanks. - Lucian Shadowborn 00:28, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Done and done. Feel free to change/edit anything I did.--Neithan Diniem 04:29, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Danke. Much appreciated. Cleaner and better. - Lucian Shadowborn 14:42, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Quick question

Are we making an umbrella project, (ie: Extended Trivia Project, or ETP for short?) so that VA would just be a sub project? Then we can fully make use of the suggested template above by making a project that can go with it. - Lucian Shadowborn 00:06, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

For the umbrella project to go forward, some pesky items need to be filled out. First, a game plan as to what is going to be documented. There are some topics which are within reason, and others which finding details on could be near impossible. Next, appropriate icons for the different topics need to be found. *I had more, but a phone call just interrupted my train of thought*. These steps do not detract from gathering the information, of course, but they are steps which are needed before a template can be utilized. G R E E N E R 02:49, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. I believe that we should have a quantity of information before we even utilize a template. Doesn't mean people can not create a template and fix it up so that it'll be ready. I went ahead and created the other language page, It's just a page that will lead to the many other languages when people are ready to start contributing to them. - Lucian Shadowborn 02:52, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Idea

Linking voice actor pages with cinematics they participated in? Also makes the Voice Actor pages a tad bit more useful. - Lucian Shadowborn 05:01, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Template? yes or no

The question of whether to use Template:Voice actor has come up again. If there's still interest in using a template, folks should propose alternatives to the current one (I think the main issue was avoiding making trivia too prominent). If there's little interest in using a template, then it's time to amend the 3-4 articles using it so that the template can be deleted.

Personally, I prefer using templates to ensure consistent language across dozens of articles. However, the project could easily continue w/o a template and the idea can be revisited again some other day.  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 17:40, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

I had hoped that the Voice Actors template could be amalgamated into a larger template as had been discussed earlier (though I don't know what the consensus was on that point). I'll admit my focus has been elsewhere, as tables and templates tend to leave me confused with their creation. If the VA template is going to be deleted then we can move the trivia to text form while seeing if people still want a more encompassing one. G R E E N E R 18:24, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Might as well kill more birds with fewer stones, I'd agree with an encompassing one. Just list off what you'd all want the ETP to cover, what tags would be needed, and any particulars and I'm sure someone could come up with a good one. Cant think of much more categories it could cover other than the one posted above, unless were going to include cinematic in the bit as well (are the cinematics even documented on the wiki?). throw in whichever category tags and the like and boom, done.--Neithan Diniem 02:57, 5 January 2011 (UTC)