Feedback talk:User/Damysticreaper/Revamp monster skill bars
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- Also Feedback:User/Falconeye/Beyond: Monster Skills 2.0 if your interested. --Falconeye 08:50, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
- I almost forgot about Rotscale and the Rotting Dragons but i rather not touch those yet as it already is bloody difficult as it is to take them down. Then again it is Hard Mode wich is supposed to be hard, let me think this one over. Da Mystic Reaper 11:02, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
- For your Kryta Undead:
- Bone Dragon
Necrotic Draconic Roar (monster skill). → Earshot foes are hexed with Malign Intervention (20 seconds).
- Dragon Spawn
- Fiendish Draconic Roar (monster skill). → Earshot foes are hexed with Rising Bile (20 seconds).
- ^_^ --Falconeye 22:13, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
- Liberated
- Creatures deal 20% less damage with spells and have immunity to 50% of critical hits.
Complete immunity destroys assassin's mojo (unless it can be overided). Also, do these environment effects/traps/etc. effect -all creatures- equally? --Falconeye 23:59, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- Like those in DoA it only affects players, both environment and traps. Da Mystic Reaper 10:32, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- But wouldnt it be more fun to challenge players in using the environment against their foes' (like SS turning attack buffs into liabilities)? Example: Wrath of the fallen (brilliant!) creates hostile human ghosts that attack you; but wouldnt they as likely other hostile foes, or more likely to have "preference" towards Charr? (would make one reconsider bringing Pyre in your party ^_^). --Falconeye 18:29, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- Vengeful Spirits are hidden foes that pop up when the players aproach them, their pop ups are not triggered by other foes. I still need to work out the build of the Vengeful Spirit but i intent on giving it monster skills only and make it a single ghost with powerful skills. When being attacked the effect triggers wich blurres the screen in a similar as alcohol does. As their prefered targets well i gues they would prefer to attack a charr first. For the effects affecting all creatures is something i don't intent on doing, also since i would need to reword and rename some of them. Also keeping in mind that creatures that can be found in the areas they are in are most of the cases well adepted to the environments they live in. Other effects such as Martial Law and Liberated would definitly not affect monsters when you use reason. But traps do have the possibility to affects monsters but i did not had that in mind, it does not take away it's an option. But for now Wrath of the Fallen still needs to be updated with a Vengeful Spirit wich i still need to think up some skills for, one thing i already decided is to make them immune to attacks and their names in the term of Ghostly, Haunted and Soul. Da Mystic Reaper 19:22, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- Surprisingly, I'd agree with Falconeye that having environmental effects affect other NPCs (both allies and foes) would make it more interesting - both strategically and humorously but primarily the former. Though depending on the effect some would be better to have underlineing (aka unseen) coding - for instance, charr would be the preferred target to the spirits (or alternatively, the spirits can get Ebon Vanguard skills and merely attack charr equally), or white mantle and peacekeepers are unaffected by Oppressor's Trap, etc. etc. Makes people use their head more. Konig/talk 20:07, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- Then i'll see what adjustments i can make to make the effects global.Da Mystic Reaper 15:39, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- Surprisingly, I'd agree with Falconeye that having environmental effects affect other NPCs (both allies and foes) would make it more interesting - both strategically and humorously but primarily the former. Though depending on the effect some would be better to have underlineing (aka unseen) coding - for instance, charr would be the preferred target to the spirits (or alternatively, the spirits can get Ebon Vanguard skills and merely attack charr equally), or white mantle and peacekeepers are unaffected by Oppressor's Trap, etc. etc. Makes people use their head more. Konig/talk 20:07, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- Vengeful Spirits are hidden foes that pop up when the players aproach them, their pop ups are not triggered by other foes. I still need to work out the build of the Vengeful Spirit but i intent on giving it monster skills only and make it a single ghost with powerful skills. When being attacked the effect triggers wich blurres the screen in a similar as alcohol does. As their prefered targets well i gues they would prefer to attack a charr first. For the effects affecting all creatures is something i don't intent on doing, also since i would need to reword and rename some of them. Also keeping in mind that creatures that can be found in the areas they are in are most of the cases well adepted to the environments they live in. Other effects such as Martial Law and Liberated would definitly not affect monsters when you use reason. But traps do have the possibility to affects monsters but i did not had that in mind, it does not take away it's an option. But for now Wrath of the Fallen still needs to be updated with a Vengeful Spirit wich i still need to think up some skills for, one thing i already decided is to make them immune to attacks and their names in the term of Ghostly, Haunted and Soul. Da Mystic Reaper 19:22, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- But wouldnt it be more fun to challenge players in using the environment against their foes' (like SS turning attack buffs into liabilities)? Example: Wrath of the fallen (brilliant!) creates hostile human ghosts that attack you; but wouldnt they as likely other hostile foes, or more likely to have "preference" towards Charr? (would make one reconsider bringing Pyre in your party ^_^). --Falconeye 18:29, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- Like those in DoA it only affects players, both environment and traps. Da Mystic Reaper 10:32, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- Ghosts of Ascalon ^_^ --Falconeye 22:40, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
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- Hmm not quite what i had in mind. What i was thinking is to give it some touch skills, a shout or 2 (Haunting Scream, Wails of the Fallen) and also a skill that summons Haunting Nightmares wich is combined with a skills who's power increases by the ammount of Haunting Nightmares that are present. I could give the Haunting Nightmares a build with skills similar in function or in name. Ah and in case you think it would be a too powerful foe when i have worked it out, killing, Haunting Nightmares and the Vengeful Spirit gives a morale boost. Da Mystic Reaper 15:39, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
My thought[edit]
Update the Skillbars, but keep the bars within their own campaigns. Example: No derv skills in proph, etc. ||-- ChaosBurst 00:57, 9 October 2011
- That is a limitation i don't want to place on HM. Da Mystic Reaper 20:26, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
You read my mind... almost[edit]
I was just about to create a page for the same thing - though for all four original games, and including NM builds. There is a particular thing I'm wondering about when I look at these builds... While I agree by far they need a rework, with every monster getting 8 skills of multiple professions, particularly referring to Ascalon and their party of four, don't you think that these builds could repeat an already-made mistake? Konig/talk 18:56, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- Ah yes, for those areas i plan on adding allies to assist players and of course with the new builds a different number of enemies per spawn. As for the other campaigns that is gonna be in a different suggestion per campaign and the reason is that the page will become to big if you but all the monster builds on one page. You can already see how big the page is and thats only Prophecies. Anyways i have not forgotten about the party limitation combined against the new builds and the added enviromental effects. Being Ascalon i plan on Warmaster Grast, Master Ranger Nente, Grazden the Protector, Necromancer Munne, Vassar and Ralena Stormbringer, each with their own unique skills. Da Mystic Reaper 19:55, 15 October 2011 (UTC) Added: I'll leave NM to you.
- Kinda seems like more work than its worth - while I wouldn't mind more allies like those in War in Kryta, you can lessen the skill bars (and/or spawn numbers) and effectively have less work for the actual implementation - thus more likely to be done. Konig/talk 20:14, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- Well less spawns is something that i already had in mind but i could reduce the effectiveness of the skills bars individually. Well not forgetting that the Ascalon enemies already have less effective builds when compared to the rest and that, but more importantly Hard Mode is supposed to be hard and Ascalon is no exception to it. But you also mention the Scavangers as example who have rotating builds who are alot more powerful than the ones i made for Ascalon. For now let's keep it with reduced spawn numbers and some nostalgic allies supporting your party. Da Mystic Reaper 21:32, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- "Hard Mode is supposed to be hard and Ascalon is no exception to it" Never said otherwise, but one must value in the reduced party size to appropriately balance skills. Fun fact regarding the Scavangers (and WiK foes) - they don't have rotating builds, it's a trick the devs use; each build is actually a different NPC but they share the same name and model so they never actually rotate. The thing is just making sure the builds are balanced to the party size. If you must add in allies or reduce spawn numbers, then there's something wrong with the skill bars. It wouldn't be making Ascalon easier - if someone were to enter Ascalon with a party of six or eight it would be easier by comparison, but the trek from those places to Ascalon is mighty long especially for some, and it's impossible in regards to missions (or potential future mission-turned-explorable). Konig/talk 21:39, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- I already knew how those rotating builds work since i read a post of yours before explaining how the rotating builds work. Having no more than 2 healers per mob and a maximum of 8 enemies per mob would ease it up alot. Increasing the ammounts of mobs but decreasing their numbers and spreading them out a bit, the number of monsters to be vanquished remains roughly the same. But all those builds are for vanquishing only, missions and NM are excluded. If a missions turns into an explorable when Ebonhawke is established and Foefire is unleashed i gues those builds could be used depending on the enemies that are encountered. But simply adjusting the enemies that spawn per mob makes it alot more doable, so no 6 Grawl Ulodyte at Eastern Frontier making it impossible, no Resurrect Gargoyles resurrecting eachother infinitly and no more than two Crown of Thorns spawning at mobs that lack healing and not spawning with mobs that posses healing. Well with such an enemy spawn setups combined with aditional allies it should prevent the vanquishes from being almost impossible without possessing stacks on consumables. Da Mystic Reaper 22:22, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- "Hard Mode is supposed to be hard and Ascalon is no exception to it" Never said otherwise, but one must value in the reduced party size to appropriately balance skills. Fun fact regarding the Scavangers (and WiK foes) - they don't have rotating builds, it's a trick the devs use; each build is actually a different NPC but they share the same name and model so they never actually rotate. The thing is just making sure the builds are balanced to the party size. If you must add in allies or reduce spawn numbers, then there's something wrong with the skill bars. It wouldn't be making Ascalon easier - if someone were to enter Ascalon with a party of six or eight it would be easier by comparison, but the trek from those places to Ascalon is mighty long especially for some, and it's impossible in regards to missions (or potential future mission-turned-explorable). Konig/talk 21:39, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- Well less spawns is something that i already had in mind but i could reduce the effectiveness of the skills bars individually. Well not forgetting that the Ascalon enemies already have less effective builds when compared to the rest and that, but more importantly Hard Mode is supposed to be hard and Ascalon is no exception to it. But you also mention the Scavangers as example who have rotating builds who are alot more powerful than the ones i made for Ascalon. For now let's keep it with reduced spawn numbers and some nostalgic allies supporting your party. Da Mystic Reaper 21:32, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- Kinda seems like more work than its worth - while I wouldn't mind more allies like those in War in Kryta, you can lessen the skill bars (and/or spawn numbers) and effectively have less work for the actual implementation - thus more likely to be done. Konig/talk 20:14, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
(Reset indent) Regarding this overall, as I agree that spawns need to be altered as well... By my observations you're suggesting this to be hard for you. Now, knowing you, you're what I and many others would consider a "hard core" player (I may be put in that same situation since I find WoC relatively easy, be it NM or HM). Normally I'd be all for that but it's rather cruel to block off 14 titles which means that in order to do decent with the "Honor" monument, one has to focus on account based titles in order to surpass 25 statues (and even then, that includes the huge-as-hell money spending titles and doing all elite areas). I have absolutely no qualms for making hard-as-fuck stuff but there are now other means, and there will be many-a-shitstorms if content devs want accessible becomes inaccessible. I am creating builds with the mentality of "balanced and decent for myself in difficulty" in mind, but when I get around to my super hard mode (dubbed "Zaishen Mode" for a reason), I'll be creating with a similar mentality you seem to show - difficult for the hard-core players. Konig/talk 19:28, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- Well you could say that it forces the players to become better by alot but in this case it might be wise if your Zaishen Mode would be adopted as a new difficulity level for this suggestion since indeed as a hard-core player who finds GWB NM rather easy and HM a good challange for a change did design it at the level of the bored pros. You could say it sepperates the the PvX players from the players who know the game. I am rather merciless towards the fervent users of PvX and do not like them that much since they drag down the level of the game wich the players who play the game for real suffer from due to a lack of challenge, and it is the challenging game i want to return to those players. But as you said i gues you have to show some sympathy to the new inexperienced players and the PvX noobs and allow them to achieve points for their HoM.
- I do think that the name Zaishen Mode would be more appropriate rather that Hard (read a little less easy) Mode for the difficulity level this suggestion. Da Mystic Reaper 19:55, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- Death to PvX! Death to PvX! Death to PvX! Death to PvX! Death to PvX! Death to PvX! *cough*
- Where was I? Oh yes, Zaishen Mode only gets its name from my intended primary means to access it (which I hinted at) - it's effectively just hard mode-only quests, but a vastly greater amount, and given in the same style as the zaishen challenge quests (or at least by the zaishen). A new NPC(s) (preferrably in the Nameless Isle) which gives quests akin to the current Zaishen bounty/mission/vanquish and when said quest is active the explorable areas (unsure if just the target explorable area or all of the region/continent/campaign/game) become "Zaishen Mode" (akin to the Wanted bounties and War in Kryta), and takes you to a ZM version of the mission if you have the mission quest. There'd be no new titles, just the rewards from drops and from the quest. Likewise, HM-only quests become available for all previously existing quests (dunno for festival as those are meant to be fun and not challenging for more reward kinds of quests).
- Alternatively, for the mission thing, I'm thinking of having new options to the mission briefer (for Proph/Factions) or the mission starter (for NF/EN) for that.
- Also considering some over-arch quests akin to The War in Kryta and the EN primary quests, but the un-removable thing would be "ehhhhh" to folks. These over-arch quests would basically have a list of all HM-only quests in the region since some quests are merely "talk to x npc, then y npc, then z npc, now go get your reward" without any/much fighting (such quests that include explorables can be done, with script reworking, but not those in outposts). Konig/talk 20:07, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- Definitly! Totaly Agree! Well Said! Hell Yeah!, I Could Not Have Said It Any Better!, You get the message.
- Well going by your criteria of Z-mode most of them are met, with the exceptions of PvE-only skills and 8 visible skills. And offering the vanquishes as quests well i have an idea for that. Adding 3 NPC's to Embark Beach at each camp that shows a list of the explorables of the campaign (*region > *explorable) and can teleport your party to the explorable of choice at Zaishen Mode, similar to those solo quest missions. When you have completed the vanquish you will get the reward (or possibly a chest with new drops) and a timer will start and your party will be teleported back to Embark Beach when it ends. That way you won't have any conflicts with active quests or changes caused by GWB. To be able to do the vanquish in ZM you must have completed it at HM first, that combined with new rewards will motivate people to start doing the vanquisher title. Once the vanquish has been completed it will be checked showing that is has been done and allowing you to keep track of what you have done already, an other possibility is a book to keep track of what you have done. Well thats my idea of how ZM vanquish can be done. Da Mystic Reaper 21:06, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- Regarding the teleporting thing, I thought of that too (and same goes for dungeons), but I felt that it made it too easy in some cases. One one hand, we can then balance every area for a party of eight, but on the other hand for areas like Dragon's Gullet it removes some challenge of having to get there. If we're aiming for difficulty/challenge, I don't think we should remove that (though the party of eight balancing does sound tasty...). For the books: It was said that there's a limit of 18 entries possible, so you'd need at least 3 books per campaign (dunno how many for EN), so I'd rather not go that route. Konig/talk 21:21, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- Being able to balance areas better and now causing any conflict with quests against the challenge of getting to the explorable wich some find fun and the majority would find annoying. When it's balance against a small aditional challenge i choose balance. We can both know that the advantages outweights the drawbacks of teleporting, the only thing is that it will be a time consuming project. As with the books i have a sollution for that as well; instead of a page per explorable you have a page per region wich has a list of explorables that can be found, once the explorable has been vanquished it will be checked and when the book is full you can deliver it in for a reward. The rewards that can be given could be gold zaishen coins, zaishen keys, zaishen summoning stones, zaishen tonics, zaishen strongboxes (a new pve type), platinum, experience, skills points, hero skill points or even rare materials, all that could be a potential reward for a completed book. Besides of adding a new title (to show you really are an elite player) the rewards system based on the books can continue to motivate people vanquishing those areas, aditional rewards in the form of an end chest that drops new items rather than gold would also be a good motivation for people to complete HM vanquisher a start doing ZM vanquisher. Rewards from the end chests could be inscripable green weapons and gold weapons (new skins and the pvp reward only skins), all rare materials, platinum or new everlasting tonics (like a tonic that can turn you into one of the dervish avatars or pre-searing Gwen, Mad King Thorn and other popular NPC's). You can also have some books for the ZM dungeons and ZM missions of yours so people will have a motivation to do those as well without the only reason being to kill boredom. I know it is a shitload of work to achieve but if it would make a pass the hard-core players finally have a challenge worthy of their skills and a title worth the prestige. If even that get's too easy you can always make a Hard Mode version of Zaishen Mode, for laughs you could call it Hard-core Zaishen Mode for the Hard-core players of Guild Wars. Da Mystic Reaper 14:06, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- Long post... time to divide and conquer.
- @Zoning to explorable areas: I can agree with the "balance over challenge to get there" idea, and I'm sure many people would prefer not caravaning, and it could allow us to make a more equal-leveled foes... but there's still one issue you haven't looked at: Where in the explorables would they be sent? For explorables like The Falls, it's simple as there's only one exit/entrance, but what of those with two? Naturally, those with an outpost next to should zone there imo, with towns and then mission outposts taking priority, but other than that? How would we decide for Reed Bog or Mamnoon Lagoon?
- @The books: that doesn't work as that's just disguising the number of items as 18. In fact, from a programming standpoint, if I'm correct, that just multiplies the number of entries (one entry per version of each page) - though it may be possible, depending on how the coding is done, I think they would of thought of such and done it instead of going with Young Heroes of Tyria. Since people are already "too many books! Q_Q" I think it'd be better to have a checklist NPC (and one for quests too please!).
- @Rewards: Honestly speaking, I'm tired of the "random chance reward" items - there are too many out there imo. And to link everything to the Zaishen for this seems a bit... overboard. But that's just me. Also, skill points? Experience? Hero skill points? These are top tier folks here, and the experience from the kills would negate the need for skill points (or hero skill points, which would be even less needed in many cases - even worthless once you get enough skills on the character). I'd drop those. Though TBH, the entire list is overboard on rewards and screams "I'm prestigious! Look at my e-peen!" (The latter pointing to "a new title", "the pvp reward only skins" and "new everlasting tonics (like a tonic that can turn you into one of the dervish avatars or pre-searing Gwen, Mad King Thorn and other popular NPC's" (btw, MKT is done already)
- Lastly... this mode should be the "end-all-be-all" difficulty mode. No harder mode, and making fancy rewards (especially tradeable ones) would immediately ruin it imo - a title would cause QQ'ing from those who can't get it (cuz, y'know, rewards must be equal to all), and unless items are auto-customized (which would cause QQ'ing), all the rewards would be able to be sold to others (thus there would be no true prestige).
- One more thing, not commenting on your comment - I began a list of environmental effects for my Zaishen Mode here, take a gander. Konig/talk 16:28, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- I understand your point of view of tradable item rewards and i agree on it. Books are counted out as well then so the only option would be an NPC to keep track of the progress. But it still needs some form of reward and if it cannot be an item then how about an emote, if there is no reward expect the reactions will be like: ok i have vanquished the game on the the most difficult mode and i get nothing for it? FU ANET!! well something like that.
- For the explorables the awnser is rather easy; the starting point is the portal from wich you enter the exxplorable when you first reach it, Manoon Lagoon starts at the Sage Lands exit, Reed Bog starts at Ettin's Back exit and Ettin's Back starts at Silverwood's exit. Not going by the outposts that connect it but from the location where you enter the explorable for the first time storywise, that is something that should be easy to understand and easy to do.
- Oh yeah i vandalised your post by changing Maguuma Lagoon into Mamnoon Lagoon :). Da Mystic Reaper 18:02, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- Long post... time to divide and conquer.
- Being able to balance areas better and now causing any conflict with quests against the challenge of getting to the explorable wich some find fun and the majority would find annoying. When it's balance against a small aditional challenge i choose balance. We can both know that the advantages outweights the drawbacks of teleporting, the only thing is that it will be a time consuming project. As with the books i have a sollution for that as well; instead of a page per explorable you have a page per region wich has a list of explorables that can be found, once the explorable has been vanquished it will be checked and when the book is full you can deliver it in for a reward. The rewards that can be given could be gold zaishen coins, zaishen keys, zaishen summoning stones, zaishen tonics, zaishen strongboxes (a new pve type), platinum, experience, skills points, hero skill points or even rare materials, all that could be a potential reward for a completed book. Besides of adding a new title (to show you really are an elite player) the rewards system based on the books can continue to motivate people vanquishing those areas, aditional rewards in the form of an end chest that drops new items rather than gold would also be a good motivation for people to complete HM vanquisher a start doing ZM vanquisher. Rewards from the end chests could be inscripable green weapons and gold weapons (new skins and the pvp reward only skins), all rare materials, platinum or new everlasting tonics (like a tonic that can turn you into one of the dervish avatars or pre-searing Gwen, Mad King Thorn and other popular NPC's). You can also have some books for the ZM dungeons and ZM missions of yours so people will have a motivation to do those as well without the only reason being to kill boredom. I know it is a shitload of work to achieve but if it would make a pass the hard-core players finally have a challenge worthy of their skills and a title worth the prestige. If even that get's too easy you can always make a Hard Mode version of Zaishen Mode, for laughs you could call it Hard-core Zaishen Mode for the Hard-core players of Guild Wars. Da Mystic Reaper 14:06, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- Regarding the teleporting thing, I thought of that too (and same goes for dungeons), but I felt that it made it too easy in some cases. One one hand, we can then balance every area for a party of eight, but on the other hand for areas like Dragon's Gullet it removes some challenge of having to get there. If we're aiming for difficulty/challenge, I don't think we should remove that (though the party of eight balancing does sound tasty...). For the books: It was said that there's a limit of 18 entries possible, so you'd need at least 3 books per campaign (dunno how many for EN), so I'd rather not go that route. Konig/talk 21:21, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
Too Cantha & Beyond[edit]
Miasma 2.0 ^_^ --Falconeye 06:02, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
Miasma - Environment Effect. You have -5 Health degeneration while conditioned. Miasma spreads between creatures of the same kind. All conditions are contagious between creatures of the same kind.
Munne and your proposed CV references![edit]
I love you!Yumiko ^,~ 01:46, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
