Talk:Game updates/20090917

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Tolkano

Nice. Not that my suggestion could have had anything to do with it, it was way too recent. -- FreedomBound 23:45, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Doesn't look like too bad of an update. Invincible Rogue 23:46, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I cant wait for another nerf date!--67.224.204.173 23:48, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

We need nerfs.

I think that you'll be waiting two months, based on the dev notes. So much for that SF nerf they talked about. -- FreedomBound 23:52, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Its not like theres a few more months in the year for them to nerf it. Oh wait... personn5 23:54, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Didn't mean they couldn't still do it in 2009 (we'll just wait and see), just meant that they haven't done it in this update. -- FreedomBound 00:06, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Tolkano is now in HA and RA... THANK YOOOOOOUUUUUU !!! Tiberium 13:53, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Joke

Patient Spirit nerf nice joke. Pika Fan 23:47, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

IMO, it was necessary, it was better than WoH at times.Insane Maestro 23:51, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Because healing can keep up with damage as it is. Pika Fan 23:54, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

i was surprised by the PS nerf, but it WAS needed, PS is one of the most op skills around Talamare 00:16, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Have you ever monked against Hexway on any decent level? Well, stupid question on my part but apparently not, because you think PS is OP. Pika Fan 00:18, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Wooooooooooow..... Why nerf a perfectly balanced skill.... King Neoterikos 00:21, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

PS didn't deserve this. The only reason I could think of why it happened is that it overshadowed RoF in hybrid builds. But meh, it was a pretty good skill, never rly thought of it as too good. Razor39999 00:29, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Healed for too much while also being un-interruptable. Gay.--Underwood 00:30, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

It's still uninteruptable. If anything good came out then I guess it's forcing even more weapon swapping to pull out every possible half skill recharge for PS. --Razor39999 00:34, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

PS was OP, compare it to other healing skills, PS was easily the strongest by far (probably still is), you say have you ever played against hexway, then dont you think that its hexway thats ALSO op Talamare 00:35, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

You can't overthink something like this, because there's no reason behind it. Power creep has grown so out of control that people whine when they can't kill anyone with any build in less than 3 seconds, so Anet nerfed a balanced skill, because they are either misguided or mentally challenged. Basically, it allowed monks survivability, so it got nerfed. You can't get inside someones head when there's nothing there. -- Tha Reckoning 00:37, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

its not a "balanced" skill when its the best without choice, and if you buff every other healing prayers skill then its power creep Talamare 00:41, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Patient is balanced. Just that every other healing skill is underpowered.

So basically, people think that, to deal with the power creep, we nerf healing, and leave damage alone. kk. Just shows how retarded people are lately. Pika Fan 00:45, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

i am not saying that you dont need to nerf damage, you do... but this was op as well Talamare 00:47, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

You can't nerf healing without nerfing damage, especially when damage is vastly more problematic than healing. It has to go hand-in-hand. They have VoR, Backfire, LC and various other OPed skills that are bigger problems than ONE patient spirit skill, and they nerf patient spirit first. It's just ridiculous and dumb. Pika Fan 00:50, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Which is why small updates fail at this point. --67.240.83.137 01:29, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Infuse followed by a PS self-cast was/is just OP, people were abusing it to spike heal their entire party or key targets on a consistent basis, and you know it. Even at the modified recharge, it will still be an abused skill. What they need to take a good look at, is Warriors constantly pinging up 0 damage when hit, even with spells/skills that ignore armor bonuses.--thejynxed- 01:32, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Sigh, all these terrible players I have to contend with.... isn't it obvious that costing a monk 15 energy to keep someone and him/herself alive isn't OP? You DO know that one of the biggest problems with monks is energy management? Oh sorry. I know it(you said it yourself). You don't. Save yourself the embarrassment of pretending you know anything about monking. FYI: Infuse eats around 300 health from the poor guy who casted it, which is 5-10 energy extra to refill the infuser's health bar. Therefore, 1 cast of infuse generally eats more than 15 energy. Kthx and lrnhao2math next time. Pika Fan 12:43, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

lol recharge is 1 second longer, don't get so riled up. and comparing anything with VoR and hexway is stupid when you try to make a non-stupid point. --Cursed Angel 10:14, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Or simply because people are too stupid to notice that nerfing healing compounds the problem of having to heal through 3-4 stacked hexes throughout your party? Oh wait, it's too difficult to understand, sorry for overestimating all of you guys. Cheers. P.S. Relating the nerf of healing to the OPedness of hexes is a totally different thing from comparing PS to Hexway. Ohso hurd undrstund hed hut soooo mouh  :( Pika Fan 12:45, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

1 sec longer... i wonder what difference it will make. For me it's more like waiting a litle longer before diverting it meheezen 12:48, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually it doubled the recharge of PS, so take a general woh hybrid build for lower end arenas. You have woh and patient as your main healing skills. Now take 1/2 of those, PS, and cut your potential usage in half, 1/2. Effectively, you have decreased the maxumum healing output of that monk by 1/4. If I told melee that every single person only took 3/4 of the damage they dealt, or hexes only did 3/4 of the degen, or duration, or damage, or whatever, there would be an uproar, but it's okay to nerf one of the few things that actually made monking somewhat keep up with damage? -- Tha Reckoning 19:04, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Death Blossom...

Rest in peace, old friend. You will never be forgotten.

Death Blossom is still viable in PvE, if you're willing to play an assassin who isn't a loser. I'm just pleased they hit Shitway and Ether Prism again. —Jette 23:50, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Oh okay, good. Not too worried about it for PvP (still a heavy hit in that area though).

its still useable in pvp too, just not on quick recharge combo's Talamare 00:15, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

mind you, if you play it with Moebius Strike(which was the case before) then the recharge isn't a real issue thb, sure it's a bit slow, but i usually get DB off only once before hitting MS for the reharge anyways --BobbyT 16:19, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

To nerf the monks more and more, while keeping so many UNUSED skills in the game crap is completely absurd. Rather than nerfing skills that work, why not buff the vast majority of underused skills in pvp. It would make the game much more interesting, and wouldn't reward players that are too stupid to counter monks. If you can't kill a monk, change YOUR build.

↑ And that, kids, is where power creep comes from. —Jette 02:52, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Mantra of Resolve

pff gg that skill. gogo glyph concentration/mantra concentration. 5 seconds of coverage + the energy loss? on an ele thats protects you from 3 spells max. glyph is in the ele line, skips enchantment removal and doesnt cause energy loss. MoR is useless compared to them now --adrin 23:59, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

In aspect of PvE, a first shot at 600ing perhaps? ~~000.00.00.00~~ 00:07, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I guess you are talking about CoF? I don't run MoR. Pika Fan 00:11, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Also, it's 10e, not 5e as the dev update says. I lol'd. -- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 00:13, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

generally-speaking, good fucking update. at least moving in the right direction. --Readem 00:09, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Let's all run 3 monk backlines in HA!Pika Fan 00:11, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Readem, are we talking about the same game? -- Tha Reckoning 00:19, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm surprised the update didn't sadden him, considering how often he ran R/As in TA to desperately try to counter Shove spike. EntropicOne 20:13, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

at least this skill is still better than Shroud of Silence or smiters boon in pvp 195.95.209.20 10:50, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

seriouslly, i used to carry this skill on my resolve trap build about 3 y ago, energy loss increased a lot, made it no longer usable, now they try to stop long time interuption prevention? i mean wasn't the energy loss increase enough? thinking about pvp use, i believe increasing enery loss to around 10 is a good punishment, pve 600's still have a lot of energy so it wouldn't be such a big problem. And about the interupton... well there is a reason why i play psychic distraction or powerblock istead of ranger interupt... i can interupt key skills no matter whatMeheezen 12:38, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

The nerf of this skill has totally ruined half of my Ele builds, and I'm not talking about farming. Why are there not 2 versions of this skill PVE & PVP? This skill is as useless as Mantra of concentration now. There's really no reason to even bring it. This has to be one of the stupidest nerfs in Guild Wars history!Wynterarwynrose 18:03, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

there is quite many stupid nerfs but some of them has been changed to different and still lol smiter's boon and shroud of silence. 89.166.101.7 20:58, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Mantra of resolve = graveyard

→ moved from Talk:Game updates:September 2009

who else agrees? --CAJOS talk 00:11, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Fuggin' BOONED ...10 energy was already too much for most Mesmer stances in PvE. If they're tryin' to nerf 600 monks, then why not actually nerf those MONK skills first? --ilr 00:23, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Completely killed it, yeah. Now it totally clashes with Mantra of Concentration and Glyph of Concentration. The only reason to run Resolve was to have long term interrupt defence at the cost of energy, and with that gone, well there's no reason I can think of to run this at all. Random ranger interrupt spam can no longer be laughed at :( Cirian 00:36, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

If it's only because of the 600 monks, they should have used the way they nerfed Signet of Humility and Mark of Insecurity. (Or invent the first PvE version to be worse than the PvP version...) --numma_cway 02:14, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

@irl, its for those pesky mindblasters, not 600 monks.--76.252.230.34 03:23, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Bye bye E/Me Me/E raptor farmers :/ this change was way too much --Soulforged 05:43, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Immolate was for Fire Eles... not this. --ilr 10:26, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

There goes VSF :/ 174.99.113.140

There goes VSF? With a good enough team (meaning waiting for the perma to ball everything up) then no one takes damage and it takes 3mins. But still, when i run monk ive never brought this skill, it seemed more like a varient skill than anything else... Death By An Arrow 11:58, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

They need to have have 5 seconds with 0 inspirtation and with 12 inspiriation 25 seconds or around there.

Or they can just split this into a PvP and PvE skill. -.- 66.194.217.222 12:44, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I kinda have to agree with you there, the current change for PvP is good. I mean, I could chain RoJ in Jade Quarry with an ease without that nerf. However, in PvE, a lot of mobs carry large variety of interrupts in some areas and you really need the long duration of anti-interrupt so you can cast a variety of different spells. Though being said, when it comes to Raptor farming, perma SF > ele/mes Mist Form IMHO (since physical attack interrupts can still go through Mist Form). --Dark Paladin X 18:14, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

either they are trying to start nerfing 600/smite or just want to end the miss use of this skill. 5 energy is nice touch but bad for 5 seconds. 5 second stances are for PvP such as Distortion, not for PvE! Come on Anet give me slavagtion!66.194.217.221

I know where i saw This

sadly, this breaks multiple PvE caster farm builds - UW, Raptors, 600s of nearly all kinds, etc. Does it harm SF Assassin faction/ecto/UW speed clear farmers? Nope. How about W/N 100 blades farmers? Nope. I realize this month is more a caster balance and some of these I completely agree with - Immolate? needed to be done. Distortion, yeah, it was fun while it lasted, but did seem abusive. Escape? While casters destroy that build if they know what they're doing, melee has griefed about it for months. Mantra of Resolve? For PvP, this move makes sense. For PvE, thanks A-net - that single-handedly destroys many monk, mesmer, and ele farm builds while leaving their melee counterparts untouched. --Falseprophet 14:21, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, Mantra of Resolve is kinda essential to the 600/monk builds because there are interrupts that aren't spells. But like I said, if you to do dungeon runs, permasin is the best.--Dark Paladin X 18:14, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Theyll nerf 600, theyll nerf ranger farms, theyll nerf ever4ything, but they will leave God mode alone, no no, the Assassins running UW on bots wit h SF that never get banned, the sins jsut running UW and FoW makign god knows how many ectos a day, ruining the game, leave the issue alone, kill the stuff that needs skill--Lord Randy 21:17, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

The cheek of it... Speaking as a pure Mesmer, I am deeply hurt at this MoR nerf:

• Reducing the duration from over 80 seconds to mere 5 seconds AND still keeping the energy loss penalty is an offence.
• If the idea was to suppress some farming builds, it should have been moved to Fast Casting attributes, and keep as is.
• We Mesmers do not have any invincibility skills like Shadow Form, Obsidian Flesh, Vow of Silence, Spellbreaker, etc... so why nerf a skill that grants us successful casting vis-a-vis other professions that abuse MoR in conjunction with the before-mentioned?
• Ok a PvP/PvE split would haveworked fine too, BUT in PvP I spec with low energy for more health, therefore the energy loss is a real punishment.
• Now we’ll have to look into some alternative... the best I can see atm is Persistence of Memory, but I will constantly swear at Dali each time I am interrupted and have to recast, which includes a higher energy loss, less duration, more recasts, and a strippable enchantment.

Farewell my dear MoR, we will have to forget you like they did to Smiter's Boon (PvP)... oh wait we have to forget you even from PvE...

--|pixy| 08:14, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

lolAnet

Nerfing PvE skills while leaving SF intact? GG --64.135.246.153 00:17, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Talk about no Vampiric Spirit split.--Wealedout 00:32, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Linsey has already stated she doesn't want to nerf Shadow Form without introducing a new way to incentive to clear high end areas, in groups (not speed clears or solo farming as it is now)... But SF WILL be nerfed.--Sensei 01:39, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

So why bother making any PvE changes in the meantime? Pretty sure someone is just busy farming with SF. --64.135.246.153 02:26, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Why even bother nerfing anything, by the time they get round to SF again GW2 will be released, seriously, let GW as is and let the people who play play with happiness.124.182.132.205 08:19, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

And imbalance. Look ma, no skill, just SF!

i say make SF 70-90% dmg reduction from all types of damage and immune to all spells then leave everything else to do with PVE alone and just stay to PVP meta nerfs. This will stop UWSC which everyone wants. Make classes other than assassins and necromancers from farming ecto's. Give other builds a go and shut all the idiots in ToA saying blacklist such and such cause they cant follow a path. only idiots with absolutely no skill farm UW so much they can afford a miniature kanaxai. killing UWSC will bring the prices of ecto's back up meaning everyone can make more money thus giving the whole community a bonus. make people use their brain in PVE again which hasn't been dome since someone read shadow form description for the 1st time and decided they would make the most imbalanced build known to GW player.210.50.12.174 09:37, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

I would rather they just give me unrestricted access to chat logs & account block commands so I can just shitlist all the UWSCers and anybody else I think is a dick or useless. I could have 85% or more of the half-assed excuse for a "community" this game has eliminated within 6-7 hours using a batch script and unsympathetic glare. I hope I'm not the only person on earth who thinks idiots and teenagers should be converted to fuel. —Jette 10:11, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

MOR Got Boon'd. Felecorr 04:51, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

More Anet failures.

2/10. Nerfed healing further, nerfed anti melee further, nerfed around mind blast, nerfed other things that had nothing to do with the meta. Only good thing was the escape tweak. -- Tha Reckoning 00:17, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Bloodspike was nice, too. That build was annoying. King Neoterikos 00:23, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

TBH they could have spent their time changing things that were bigger problems like these. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Tha Reckoning (talk).

Thanks Wyn. -- Tha Reckoning 00:30, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Atleast they reverted Finale to a PvE split... that shows they're atleast being responsible and responsive now. ...Though everything I've pointed out will definitely be ignored (no shocker there)... So much for Wyn's wonderful theory about the update feedback pages ever being "read". --ilr 00:31, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

They could be reading them, and just doing the opposite to spite you. Just sayin' -- FreedomBound 00:32, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Yeah IDK what they read, if anything at all. You can't put someone else's inadequacies on Wyn though, Anet was jacked up before Wyn, and once Wyn moves on, they'll still be jacked up. -- Tha Reckoning 00:33, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I would like to point out to you that the developers have been out sick for a week, and the few days that the feedback space was up before they went to PAX and caught the plague, they were too busy getting ready for PAX as well as working on the initial stages of this update to have time to read the comments. Since they have been back, it's been all about getting it out, since soooooo many people QQ'd about the delay due to illness. You can't expect miracles or a new system to instantaneously create what you want ilr. Please stop. -- Wyn talk 00:37, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Overall I find this a very good update, for PvE it's a start to bring 600 monks in line in some areas and for PvP all of it were meaningful changes, except Patient Spirit IMO. That skill will be missed. Razor39999 00:40, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Not going to stop using PS its just too good. Unless you are looking at Healer's Boon builds. They might opt for orison of healing for the 2second recharge.--Underwood 00:44, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

The only part of it that sucked was Rip Enchant, otherwise, I quite like the update. I can also see how they sneakily nerfed Necrobombers and Touchers with the Signet of Agony change and Unholy Feast change. Honestly though, they could have left Unholy Feast alone and just moved it into Death Magic. I don't quite understand the change to Ether Prism though, it was already an extremely short-lived spell, usually ending up with the caster dead as soon as it wore off. It wasn't long enough to cover the casting time of Meteor Shower (so they lived through the cast), etc. I guess I'll have to play with it some more to figure it out. I normally just skipped it though when there were so many more useful Elites to bring instead.-thejynxed- 07:53, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Using Ether Prism to cast MS is probably the most retarded thing I heard in a while. Pika Fan 01:13, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

This is true, I am just saying what I've witnessed EP being used for. Couple with an anti-interrupt skill, people were using it to survive in AB/JQ/FA to cap mines + shrines while being attacked by Sins/Warriors/Rangers.-thejynxed- 01:16, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

""since soooooo many people QQ'd about the delay due to illness."" WTH? It was just 1 person and he bargained it down hours after posting it. You're funny --ilr 10:15, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

You know, maybe if you actually played the game, the devs would pay more attention to your suggestions. But you don't, and it's obvious from the way you don't understand why OPed skills and builds are OPed. Pika Fan 12:18, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

They caught the PLAGUE? Are these the Dark Ages, Wyn? Also, how on earth do you know all of these very specific details about the live team? You stalking them or something? 68.58.91.59 14:19, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

The Live Team was exposed to H1N1 at PAX. I thought that was pretty common knowledge among the community at large. As for stalking them? No, I simply read things and pay attention. I do count most of them as friends however, so yes, I do talk to them outside GW, and the wiki. -- Wyn talk 08:32, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Those sources didn't say half of the things you said about the live team. I must assume you learned these things by directly talking with them? 68.58.91.59 10:13, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

It looks like a decent balance update to me...armor of sanc cant be used to spam weakness as much, fire ele got nerfed (kinda sorta), prism destroyed - maybe too much, mantra of resolve - unfortunate, everything else looks ok to me..maybe distortion was nerfed a lil too much. Im just a little bummed that they didnt do anything to fix some of the crappy skills that arent worth a slot on your bar (and theres quite a few) :( --Celtus 01:07, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

ooh and im quite surprised illusion of pain didnt get nerfed..the strongest degen spell in game (ever?) and its not elite. gg --Celtus 02:18, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I stand by what I said. 2/10, as usual. -- Tha Reckoning 01:46, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

What warped quality scale are you using? Is 1/10 a neutral rating? ~Shard 02:16, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

in my country, 1 is best, and 10 is worst... reckoning must think this is great change then, he fills anet with praise Talamare 02:22, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I liked most of the changes though I feel some could have been better thought-out. For example, "takes 75% less damage" is still invincibility for all spiking purposes (unless the person has whoa lag, which doesn't count), which is what the skill is for. Mostly. I would rather the skill work like a prism, splitting light (energy) into many different colors (effects). Of course, that would allow for awesome bar compression, so they would all have to suck. Hm. Maybe +1 to your elemental attributes for a little while, +1 energy regen, +2 health regen, +5 armor, 20% decreased elemental spell casting time, +15% movement speed, and 33% shorter hexes/conditions. It would be really stupid and no one would run it, but when they did it would be kind of fun to use anyway. Alternatively, "You lose 5...25...30 energy Each of your other party members gains 2...7...8 energy." It splits it seven ways, see? Also stupid, but possibly useful for some weird build out there. —Jette 08:12, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Then you'd better make sure you can only have one copy per party and/or that it doesn't have mapwide range. :> Vili 点 08:56, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

This is further proof I'm incompetent at playing badly. I'm not using that as some sort of "double negative" that means I'm so good I can't be bad, but I learned how to play the game properly, to the point that coming up with and/or using ghey gimmicks is so foreign to me I can't even recognize them when it's blatantly obvious. Have you ever seen me on a palm strike any sin? I'm terrible. —Jette 08:59, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Feedback??

I wonder if anyone posted this suggestions on it. i dont see even one suggestion from skill feedback that was applied to this update. besides, armor of sanctity was ok and wasnt being ABUSED like some other skills.--Isaac the Sinful 00:37, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

What skill feedback are you referring to? This? or this? If it's the former, none of that COULD be used because of licensing issues. If it's the latter, read my comments in the above post. -- Wyn talk 00:43, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

not quite true some time ago i posted about escape and suggested to do what they did - the elemental attacks-- Zesbeer 00:58, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Don't whine about Discord, it's starting to show its wear in high-end PvE (many areas it totally fails in, especially for Vanquishing), and I can't name a single Necro in their right mind that brings it in PvP over AotL or Flesh Golem seeing as how they are in Death Magic, and the other two are actually useful. As far as Shadow Form goes? Who cares. It's tough enough for Assassins in PvE. Sure they can somewhat spike, but they have pathetic defenses (Critical Defenses? Don't make me laugh.), pathetic healing (No 'quick' healing outside of one or two medium to long recharge Shadow Steps), and are squishy as all hell. Outside of doing SF Sinway Smite SoO runs, it's nigh unto impossible to get into PvE groups unless people are doing Zaishen Mission or Zaishen Bounty (cuz CoP spike doesn't work anymore, and that was the only 'party' build that people wanted Sins for in PvE outside of boring MQSC). I hope ANet never nerfs another farming build ever again. Why? Because honestly, who cares if they found a moderately or overly effective way to do what they like to do *in PvE*, you know, the part that acts like a giant primer for the *PvP* part of Guild Wars? And no, sadly, the 'economy' is not a valid reason anymore, there is just no fixing something that broken.--thejynxed- 01:05, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

"there is just no fixing something that broken" --Thejynxed. Bullseye you hit the mark! They are trying to hard and hitting some really hard branches on the way down!--Bermudezis2005 01:22, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Quite agree with Thejynxed there, but the fact that I'm just a mediocre player according to my better judgement, not a "pro" like a lot of people I can't fully see this through; This skill difference in turn also makes me have quite a few choices for farming because of my lack of experience with more specified solo- and teambuilds (eg. speedclears, DoA teams, etc); And this in turn makes me reside on the bad end of economy, since the more fun/easier farming builds (like SF) are taking quite a beating (and are not done with yet I reckon) removing another viable choice from the list, whilst other highly-skilled players/groups have dozens of other possibilities. Also, I don't quite agree on most (or all) skill updates being based on Pvp meta or just to kill specific "OP farming builds"...Done QQing/ranting. Ahem, also, they henced to check on Revive Animal. Deluriam 11:28, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Brave move

Nerfing Patient, should be interesting to see what will be run 90.212.161.125 01:42, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Brave, but very stupid, seeing as healing barely keeps up with damage, requiring very skilled monks to deal with even the most inexperienced damagers. -- Tha Reckoning 01:48, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

PS is still best, it will still see play Talamare 01:56, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Only because everything else fails so much harder. There are almost no viable heals, and Anet is cutting away at what little bit is left, soon it'll just be which team's monk can get lucky long enough for a win, instead of actually effectively keeping their party alive. -- Tha Reckoning 02:00, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree this is a hurtful blow, monks arent only healers and dmg dealers when needed, we are tanks, specially in RA, TA, and running wont help, and the only way to get you going is tanking, healing the massive dmg, conditions, and hexes. Patient spirit was a MUST to have on any build, and above that monks don't have other spells to use... Like what? Orison of healing? Healing breeze? Lets not joke even about it. Its not even about nerfing a skill, but cutting the wings of monk to do its own job properly. I understand it might take more skill now to manage the recharge with dmg, and situation, between you and your team. but the more you nerf simple skills as PS, the more Monks will take simple tank skills from Warrior and Dervish, Ranger, just to keep them going. PLEASE do re-think the update, its painful. --Vital Spark 04:58, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

It's not the lack of viable healing skills, it's the overabundance of spiking & hexing. --ilr 10:47, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

^ILR got it here.They should first take down the huge power skills that are responsible for the power creep.Then nerf monks accordingly.Yes their healing power only got buffed trough patient and WoH but they got so much more other skills that they didn't even think of.Aura of Stability is one of them.

The reason Monks are rly taking a beating in RA is because they have to pack *so much* in only 8 skills.They need healing,lots of hex removal,condition removal (wich most monks would like to have more of but they just don't have room) and stances (since if they intend on staying alive they'll need a safeguard button in case they get bull'd or face a deva hammer) Lilondra *poke* 10:53, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Aura of stability is "target other ally cannot be knocked down" I need to keep myself up, and keep someone else alive, non coditioned or hexed, I really couldnt care less if someone will get knockdown if the cost of holding that skill would be taking off any of my healing spells wich are getting nerfed continously btw. So I really cant say I understand what your saying, when I can easily say I did use all other monk skills, and not many of them is usefull at all and Aura of stability is the one. --Vital Spark 08:10, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

The warrior's tactics skill tree is "dead" only because monks used a lot of tactic skills beacause of the +16 AR from shields. Imo ANet could nerf tactic stances with "you can't cast spells while under this stance". But instead of nerfing monks, they "killed" the tactics skill tree. (I am talking about PvP) Tiberium 14:08, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

The tactics tree is dead because for some time now warriors just don't have a niche they want that tactics is best at filling at Lilondra *poke* 14:15, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Summary

PvE/PvP changes: Wait.. why did we split again? Oh yeah, TO AVOID UNWARRENTED NERFS TO PVE FOR PVP SAKE AND VICE VERSA

PvP changes: awesome

PvE changes: As if monks weren't useless enough already in PvE, now their main non-elite healing spell is nerfed, and the ONE skill making them have decent enough energy management is nerfed to less then half upkeep. RIP monking in serious PvE. Sad when I look at my characters going "I want to heal today", and get on my ele or rit. Other changes weren't needed save FoR, for that one farming build.

I'm not usually one to complain, but we were delayed for THIS? 76.188.221.120 01:57, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, obviously, you wish something would have been split in this update, but you probably just forgot to tell everyone which skill(s) it was. ~Shard 01:59, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Talk about no Vampiric Spirit split.--Wealedout 02:03, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

ima guess hes QQing about selfless spirit... Talamare 02:16, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Patient Spirit, Vampiric Spirit, Armor of Sanctity, and lesser important: all of those other skills. My main gripe is about Selfless Spirit, because it's the only skill that put monks even close to ER eles, yet ER eles are still walking around making monks worthless. It goes to say something when PROT MONKS heal better then Healing monks, and so do Rits. Both Rits (Spirit Transfer/Light), and ER eles (Imbue) have skills that put WoH to shame. In all, ER needs to be nerfed, Selfless Spirit made a bit more maintainable (30rc?), boonprot needs to be taken down a peg but not nerfed, Healing needs a small buff to non-elite healing skills, and Elite healing skills that -aren't- WoH. 76.188.221.120 02:18, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Monks have never needed the energy management Selfless Spirit offered. Glyph of Lesser Energy has been more than enough for a long while, and even before then it wasn't necessary. A monk's energy management comes from effective use of prot; it's not like it's impossible to monk unless all of your spells are free. Racthoh 06:36, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Are you for real? You actually think GoLE is a viable energy managament skill for monks? Most monk skills (or most of the good ones anyway) only cost 5e.. GoLE only affects 2 spells, costs energy and time to cast, and before you've gotten anywhere it's gone. GoLE was only useful in casting higher cost skills (Aegis, Heal Party, Extinguish etc).. For most of the monk staple skills WoH, Life Sheath, Guardian, SoA etc etc it's a complete and utter waste of a skill slot. I'm basically annoyed in that Anet, buffed the skill because it was underpowered for a PvE skill, and now it's been nerfed back to worse than it was before they buffed it.Anon-e-mouse 10:08, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Channeling Talamare 10:14, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Your right,What if they take your double damage,87.5 % damage reduction and invincibility if you don't use those away.The similarity between the average player and a hard mode monster might be less obvious.Lilondra *poke* 10:36, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

If you are seriously recommending using Channeling in HM PvE, then you're an even worse monk than I already think you are. There is no way a squishy target like a monk should be anywhere near enough foes to use it. Added to which channeling is not a monk skill. Anon-e-mouse 17:25, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Either you don't know how to preprot,or you aren't running enough support / abusing shit.Either way you ae bad if you actually needed that skill.Just saying Lilondra *poke* 16:03, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Oh dear gods... This update is utterly horrible for PvE, almost every single change that wasn't PvP only was terrible. Vampiric Spirit? Hasn't the blood necro gotten nerfed enough for other classes abusing their skills? Patient Spirit and Selfless Spirit? Not to join in the other QQ'ing monks, but this is a serious annoyance. Monking is stressful enough as is for almost every person person being over-opinionated about exactly which skills belong and don't belong on your bar, the last thing really needed is BS nerfs. Yes, Selfless Spirit's buff last month was overpowered, but nobody's going to lie that they didn't like it. If we could keep it up 3/4 of the time or even half the time with a moderate investment in a Faction title (instead of max) that would feel incredibly more fair after giving us a godly buff over just ripping it away. Ether Prism was perfect as was for PvE, particularly in endgame NF where you can't rely on your usual enchantments for energy management and healing. If those changes were really needed for PvP that's great; split the skill. The Immolate nerf was just unnecessary. Could be the fact that I never pvp where it really matters, but I've never even heard any pvp complaints about it. Ofc most pvp complaints that are worth anything find their way around to PvE ears. Mantra of Resolve was bad enough at chewing through all of your energy as it was... Just refer to the rest of the complaints on here. Yea, its still usable, but it will leave you out of energy before you can say Shadow Form. After last month's fantastic work, lots of needed buffs, reworkings people got excited about, this month's updates are utterly depressing. Lillium 12:04, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Want a good laugh?

Read the dev notes on R/A's. It's almost as if they've never played the game :/. On a happier note, welcome back to the meta WE dagger warrs and SA dagger rangers. I missed you guys.--Karate Jesus 02:58, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I especially liked the bit about immolate being the best fire magic skill to change, to decrease damage output. -- Tha Reckoning 03:04, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I read that part on immolate and literally said "wtf?" (not in so few of words...I think there was laughing involved). Good thing they listen to experienced players... --Karate Jesus 03:23, 18 September 2009 (UTC) 03:23, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

TBH,shure they missed some keyproblems but dude its anet ? If you still had your hopes up you proly are naive as fuck.They did escape and immolate the way I suggested it so I'm happy already :) Lilondra *poke* 05:32, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Immolate and Distortion were a bit overpowered when used with MB/Distortion casters, so that makes sense. I don't think either of those nerfs will destroy the build, though - eles just can't go toe-to-toe with melee continuously (and they probably watched me do it too much ;). It was obvious Escape was going to get the hammer - way too many melee griefers complaining about R/A daggers dominating, though I just burned them to death. The worst move, IMO, is Mantra of Resolve - shoulda been a PvP/PvE split - screws farming many areas for casters, but leaves farming for Warriors and Assassins intact in their broken forms. --Falseprophet 18:03, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Honestly, they could have achieved better affect with Escape by changing the stance to end when you use a non-Ranger skill, instead of ending on a melee attack. Now it just leaves the stance to be abused instead by crazy versions of Touch Rangers and other Ranger caster combos.-thejynxed- 08:03, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Touch rangers with escape will run out of energy preeetty quick and rangers with spells+escape o.O??? 195.95.209.20 08:09, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

touchers dont need escape, their bar is only 2 attacks and 1 energy management elite, the other 4-5 skills are all block stances and such Talamare 08:43, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I've seen them use it to tank any Melee combo. Also, it was used to catch kiters, the bane of Touchers everywhere, quite efficiently. They don't need e-management while using Sup Expertise and focusing on single targets.-thejynxed- 12:36, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

KJ they are trying to FIX the game, not do what Izzy did which was whenever something OP came about, nerf it to hell (smite boon'd) and then buff randomly next month). Frosty. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:90.212.161.125 (talk).

Who said they weren't? I just think their reasoning behind it (the dev notes) are hilarious. Especially the R/A section, mainly because they say they "tried it themselves"...and then seem to have no idea why it was good in the first place--Karate Jesus 12:38, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Who cares if the result is good? Gosh, quit whining. --Super Igor 15:21, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Pointing something funny out =/= whining. Reading comprehension ftl. Karate Jesus 15:38, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Urong. --Super Igor 15:54, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

You are whining that they didn't understand why R/A was good in the first place. :D --Super Igor 15:56, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Nou. I just thought it was funny. I don't care if they're right about why it was good or not, as long as they fixed it. Anywho, looks like Shattering Assault Rangers might be coming back :o Karate Jesus 16:01, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

If you want better reasoning and dev update notes, then tell Regina to either play the game or ask the reasons from the GWLT --Boro 16:08, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Nou. Also, </3 shattering assault. :[ --Super Igor 16:11, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I would assume that the GWLT or at least one of the devs writes the dev notes. Regina just added them to the wiki. I would also assume that the devs played the build...because...well, they said did. And @Igor...you didn't miss SA Rangers? Karate Jesus 16:12, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Only the ones with d-shot. :> --Super Igor 16:15, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Pro-weapon swapping, dshot, SA dagger rangers are teh best. Karate Jesus 16:16, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

@ Falseprophet, seriously? You think the broken parts of MB/D were immolate and distortion? Of course, you're right, it completely had nothing to do with the skill that gave infinite energy to fuel the build. -- Tha Reckoning 18:29, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Want to tell them how you really feel

By going on the BBB, or Better Business Bureuas website I located the ever elusive ArenaNet Phone Number and fax Number.

Want to show them how much you "agree" with their carefully thought out and "well" executed update over the phone? Call (425) 462-9444. Want to send them a lovely fax showing them how much you appreciate the Selfles Spirit Nerf/Execuation? Send your fax to (425) 671-0589. Info can be found at http://www.bbb.org/western-washington/business-reviews/computer-software-publishers-and-developers/arenanet-in-bellevue-wa-22017235 . Or Just go to www.BBB.org and look up Arenanet(I don't know how to sign so i hope some of you find this helpful)

Oh and Arenanet is not a BBB accreditted Bussiness BTW. They rate an -A though so thats not bad. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:74.220.50.18 (talk).

lol you could do the same thing via leaving a message on one of there talk pages or spending in a support ticket. believe it or not they read them.-- Zesbeer 07:43, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Sure, I'll ring them, but it's an international phone call from where I am. I know, how about you wire me some money... hmm, I don't know... enough to cover a 3hr 43 minute phone conversation, also 12 easy hourly installments of $29.95 US and a free set of steak knives. Oh, and an autographed photograph of Angelina Jolie she puts the vrrroooohm into car ^_^ ~~000.00.00.00~~ 08:12, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Flawless victory

<3 Mediggo 06:33, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

September 17 Update

→ moved from Talk:Game updates

I'm proud of you ANet, I really am.--Tyri Sunbeam 00:44, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Do I detect a hint of sarcasm? Nope, none at all. :) --Seventh 00:51, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

No, I'm dead serious. Finally, a bit of sense.--Tyri Sunbeam 00:57, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

...what? -- Tha Reckoning 01:44, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

If by sense you mean recklessly contradicting themselves, then yes. They deserve a pat on the back. 173.64.119.238 05:31, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

the only good is the Escape one (and maybe, the Mantra of Resolve idea but a bit too overnerfed) Nikademo 08:38, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Wow thanks Anet for nerfing another farm build(600!), now I have no other choice to go farming with my retarded SF sin again until you finally nerf that!Tyraelxy 10:12, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

its kinda funny how so many other skills gets nerfed before SF 195.95.209.20 10:47, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

^THIS^ --ilr 10:59, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Also lol at dev notes on R/A, seems like they were on crack or something...Tyraelxy 11:35, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Soon they can't nerf SF either, because in the future it's the only skill that isn't useless :P - J.P.Talk 12:05, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Not many 600 farms need MoR anyway, majority of ones that do are dungeon runs but MoR made them way too easy. --Super Igor 15:19, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

MoR nerf was necessary. SC builds such as 600/smite and Shadow Form should have never existed. Be happy that you were given some extra things and suck it up if its taken away from you. After all, you will become a better player by not playing gimmick shitbuilds. --Boro 16:05, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

@Boro 600 was neither a gimmick build, nor was it permanent invincibility. Spell Breaker lasts max 21 sec with 20% increase from weapon, therefore leaves 600 vulnerable to spells for the remainder of its 45 sec recharge, unlike SF, which can be full maintained with no outside assist. Also, though 600 can prevent most damage, it is still HIT by attacks, therefore weak to interruption, again, unlike SF, which is totally immune to attacks. Also, looking at these two points, 600 already in small aggro situations took careful e mgmnt if interrupters were still in play, as the high cost of using the pre-nerf MoR stole 9 e per interrupt. and tho BS and EB gave energy from attacks,, it was only total 2, and nowhere near the counter to the MoR energy steal you seem to think it was. Thus including some skill with the multiple required casts it took to maintain it's survivability, ESPECIALLY in situations were Dazed is present and prevalent. --Delorean 17:10, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

(R.I) I'd say 600 was all about experience with the build.Once you know it quite well it doesn't rly take alot of your braincells and you can go into autopilote like all farm builds.Lilondra *poke* 17:16, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

600/Smite is actually very easy. --Super Igor 19:02, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Dear Players

We hate you so much.

Love, Anet. x.x 75.93.25.136 12:19, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

And why is that? Meheezen 12:39, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

LOL I've been saying this was true for a long time now. Ok, I had a small spill on the MoR talk page, but here is where I'll lay it all out since apparently anet reads the talk pages, if whoever said that before was correct. I spent 3 1/2 years making a monk that's worth having, and that's been no easy task. He was capable of mosst thins righ AFTER the original 600 kill nerf, the nerf of Holy Wrath and Spirit Bond. That same nerf was blatantly aimed st solo monk farming, which(such as 600 UW farm) even WITHOUT those nerfs, would be nearly impossible now anyway, as a result of the enchant kills that were ALSO introduced in to such places. Now, after having forced this farm to a two player team, or forcing loss of drops by requiring at LEAST a hero to run it, I thought that perhaps anet would finally acquiesse on their blatant hatred of monks having any power at all. Not So. First, they killed all the party heals in a global nerf. This ruined a very VERY effective heal bar for PvP and PvE. Then later ans there was so much complaint about the Mystic Regen nerf, they split skill changes into PvE PvP changes, so that abuse in PvP would not affect those who used the nerfed skills as badly in PvE. Though this was a good change, the previously ruined skills, such as the party heals, were never reverted in PvE as they should have been. The only good heal builds were cooki cutter builds, making all heal and prot monks fairly well a dime/dozen. Then we have the case of RoJ. Was a totally useless skill, and though I agree the fix to it was overpowered a bit, the nerf of that fix has made it useless again, once again removing smite caster builds from the scene of play. Now they remove a skill that's not even a monk skill, MoR, to try and stop 600's once again, paying as usual, too much attention to monks, and not enough to other MORE ABUSED soloing builds, like Permaform sin. C'mon guys, 3 sins can run all quests in UW, 600 couldn't do that! On the dev page itself and I quote: "We didn't feel that it was reasonable for someone's interruption attempt to be countered by an invisible stance that was activated a full minute or more earlier." PVP. THIS STATEMENT PROVES THAT'S WHERE THE ISSUE IS. There was no mention of PvE abuse, therefore MAKE THE CHANGE WHERE IT'S NEEDED LEAVE THE REST OF US ALONE! I also emailed anet's community address about this, as did several members of my alliance. about 100-200 of us no longer intend to purchase GW2, which is just over the horizon, as we have no desire to allow anet to ruin yet another game the way that just this one skill update has. They with this skill, ruined caster builds for almost every profession, and the most competitive build for running alongside Permaform. Assassins are now at an unattainable level of Superpower that no other class is capable of competing with on the most remote of levels, and the only profession that can run basically any/everything they choose with no interruption or fear of restraint. It's ridiculously imbalanced, and completely unfair bias.Delorean 13:30, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Oooook.... so I wont be seeing every HM party looking for a monk to go? they are just messing with farming... they have always said they were anti farming... I'm jsut waiting for the SF nerf also, I'm just not as loud as some... I jsut wish they didn't do this so soon after I finally broke down and made a 600... MrPaladin talk 13:36, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Truth is that monks were once in the position sins are now. They were the farm kings. 55's were the richest characters in the game. After that was nerfed, 600's ruled the game. The nerfs designed to prevent farming were unpopular, but justified. Other nerfs designed at decreasing the overall healing potential were, however, always wrong. Also, eles and rits should not be better at healing than monks, as is currently the case. Anet does need to nerf shadowform. Tbh, I think it should still be maintainable, but the damage that can be done while in SF should be more or less negated. Invincibilty is okay, but the abilty to kill mobs effectively while being invincible is blatantly wrong.

I also see alot of warrior hatred from Anet. My main is a warrior that never gets used anymore. Blocking, blindness, cripple, and movement hexes all reduce a warrior capability to participate effectively. Most of his attacks are adreneline based, and because of the way adreneline works, failing to hit renders his skills unusable. The warrior is also unable to effectively counter these limitations since some blocks are the result of stances and others the result of enchantments. Blindness can be reapplied faster than a warrior can remove it, and hex removal was never an option for a warrior. Trying to combat these would require a four seperate skills, all of them energy based. Seriously, aren't we all tired of only being allowed to run two warrior builds - shock axe and ES hammer?

I submit that a good way to solve alot of the problems throughout the game would be remove the health penalties for major and superior runes (in order to increase the effectiveness of a character using skills within his own class) and to simultaneously limit the attributes of second classes to 9 iso the current 12. 217.234.201.158 14:17, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

@delo if your 100-200 friends (lol) really think the MoR change is what killed GW, I'm glad you won't be bothering people playing GW2. Also, PvE is super easy and if you have to resort to solo gimmicks to clear it you should be ashamed. -- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 15:42, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Delo, IP! you are wrong. There shouldn't have been any pvp-pve split ever. With mobs designed to be as challenging(read: no solofarm, no tanknukeheal) as possible with the best AI gw has. IP: maintainable Invincibility is NEVER okay. Delo: Glad that we will never see you in GW2. --Boro 16:02, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't end there... there's so many thing wrong with that Wall-o-Text I feel it should be itemized for LuLz:
-How the hell does it take anyone 3-1/2 years to "complete" their build, in a game with a level cap of 20?
-"Enchant Kills?" wut? The threshold for proper terminology is pretty lenient but you just failed it anyway.
-Party Heals will never be reverted b/c they make Dungeons mind-numbingly easy.
-RoJ wasn't re-nerfed, the A.I. was fixed.... Lrn-2-f'ing-READ
-Threatening a 100-200 member Boycotting of GW2 just b/c 1 stance got B00N'd:
--->Will just make the Devs laugh uncontrollably
---> & just confirms for them that they're on the right path to stopping total idiots from farming end-game.
-In other words: You hurt your own case more than you helped it by posting this. Next time you should just leave it to the Pros. --ilr 20:21, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

@Boro and Armond: glad to know PvP players love to countermand themselves, as obviously you PvP more than you PvE... and @Boro, so you're saying there should have been no PvP PvE split, which means tou'd love to see Mystic Regen, Discord, SF, and all the others that are diff in the two halves be reinstituted and unnerfed in PvP, making them the same in both aspect of the game... SURE WHY NOT, LET'S MAKE EVERY ONE INVINCIBLE! "maintainable Invincibility is NEVER okay" Love the fact that you threw that onr in Boro, made yourself sound like an idiot, as well as breaking your own point. :D As for Both of you, the glad to know we won't see you in GW2 comments are what make players such as yourselves something no one who quits playing would miss, as apparently only your opinions should count.Delorean 16:40, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Stop acting like an idiot,I'm shure you consider yourself not to be one.Boro obviously ment that pve is to easy already.I'm going to make the comparison between a HM monster and a player now

• Atleast 87.5 % damage reduction
• Double Damage skills and skills buffed into crazy damage
• Retarded gameplay
• Permanent invincibility

I'm sorry but I'm forced to conclude that the difference between the average pve player and a HM monster is The invincibility.I hereby conclude that you do not need the extra skills and are whining because you are just not willing to adjust to the billion other OP options Lilondra *poke* 16:46, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Try an HM run without HB or UA on a monk, try FOW or UW or any elite area HM for that matter without PvE skills or a perma tank, then tell me how easy PvE is. Delorean 16:57, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

The point is that HM is ridiculously hard without those PvE only skills. But even then you can still blow your way through HM with minor adjustments and builds like Discordway. Normal PvE is too easy with all the regular OP skills, and heroes, around. Also, flame less. Mediggo 17:03, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

If you read my post you would actually realise I implied using those skills.Also HM is terribly designed its just + damage + armor + IAS + IMS + .... . It doesn't require skill,it requires broken builds to beat it Lilondra *poke* 17:04, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Hardmode is meant to be hard, hint's in the name. Shame elite areas and dungeons are pretty easy now. -smøni 18:50, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Perma SF is not perma invincibility. Those of you claiming it is abviously don't know what you're talking about. There is nothing wrong with Perma SF in and of itself, it is the ability to easily kill mobs while under the effects of SF that is broken. Also Boro is right when he says that there should never have been a PVP/PVE split - the correct answer was to get rid of pvp entirely, because that is what is really broken in the game, unless, of course you're fond of leechers, leavers, syncers, and epicly bad sportsmanship... 217.234.201.158 19:00, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

You sir,amost earned your epically (bad) quote of the day! Unfortunately I don't keep wiki quotes (to F'en many).I'll be nice and give you a hint ::::::: Njuh (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmnEWvo1Ugw) You'll find the 2nd lesson intresting.Thats ignoring that they won't throw away pvp because someone doesn't want his OP builds nerfed Lilondra *poke* 04:33, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

lol, I knew that, Lilondra. Still, PvP is broken - mostly because the players are actively and intentionally breaking it. I mean, you have four players that want to pvp together, so you go to TA right? Wrong, you go to RA and sync. How broke is that? And how do you fix that? How do you fix players? Simple fact is that most people who bought the game have been interested in PVE. More people play PVE than PVP today. So that's what you go with. It's a business, so you follow the money. When that money leads you down a different path than you started out on, then that's the path you follow. Otherwise you'll soon be standing around waxing poeticly about the road not taken... 217.234.225.86 16:03, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

You sir have no idea what you're talking about. Razor39999 20:36, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

I know very well what I'm talking about, and thank you for that very constructive criticism - I feel so informed now. I really like how you prefer to attack me instead of addressing the discussion, or presenting a countering argument. Typical wiki fascism at work. Sure sign of an intelligent mind, that... 217.234.225.86 21:30, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

(R.I) First of all : Playercount is going down,Not up.It also went down when they decided to fuck up gamebalance.You just didn't feel it because new players were constantly arriving (buying the game of NF,not knowing anything abou the game).Also RA sync is the least of my problems, only scrubs sync unless your running something crazy like chargesword and stuff :p Lilondra *poke* 07:09, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I never said that player count was going up. Also, if I'm so wrong about PVP being broken and needing to be removed in general, then why is there soon to be no TA and no HB - both PVP areas. Even HA is having content (heroes) removed. What content is being removed from PVE? None! Obviously, Anet has come to the same conclusion I have.... 217.234.183.190 09:40, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Successful troll thread is successful. —Jette 09:45, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Thats not fair with IP's you don't know if they are trolling or retarded Lilondra *poke* 09:57, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

quote - Try an HM run without HB or UA on a monk, try FOW or UW or any elite area HM for that matter without PvE skills or a perma tank, then tell me how easy PvE is. - by Delorean

I prot 9 times out of 10 (with prot prayers elite) and take a rit healer (also without HB or UA). Now tell me why I should not have been able to get my legendary defender. PvE is is easy enough as long as you take characters with support skills instead of bringing 5 full nukers and a tank. Even if you change 1 of those into a paragon or air ele, it means your monks will have a much easier time. Try to learn what kind of enemies are in FoW / UW / wherever you want to go and counter their most dangerous skills. Kite melee enemies. Strafe longbow/recurve bow users. KEEP DISTANCE FROM YOUR TANK - the number 1 reason people die in dungeons and elite areas. Do that and you will see HM is not hard at all. Or use permasins / discordway / retardway and stay an idiot Koda Kumi talk 10:09, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

So when you are unable to provide a logical counter to my arguments, you call me a troll and a retard. Nice. NPA obviously doesn't protect IP's. Why don't you stop being Wiki-fascists! You are no better than anyone else just because you have gone to the bother to create a user page. You should really be ashamed of yourselves. 217.234.233.75 12:04, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

@IP: Just because ANet is removing TA/HB doesn't mean they need to be removed, nor are you automatically correct in something just because ANet agrees with you (in fact, that would make you wrong more often than not, at least since Factions came out). Also, QQ more - they're not calling you retarded and ignoring NPA because you're not registered, they're doing it because you're being retarded.

I find it ironic that the NPA policy was created to prevent arguments from being derailed (even if not primarily), but here you're using the fact that you're an IP as a strawman to derail the conversation. -- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 14:31, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

That's incorrect Armond, the conversation was derailed when they decided to resort to insults rather than adressing the arguments themselves. They did this, not me. As for the argument about me not being correct just because Anet agrees with me, I concede the point. Anet does make mistakes. I still feel that I am correct - not because Anet agrees with me (agreement is actually too strong a word here), but because that is what my experience in the game dictates. I also fully respect that you all feel differently and have your reasons for that. It's just too bad that some of you are incapable of either putting those reasons into words or ignoring me altogether, and hence stoop to name-calling. This does not speak well of you. 217.234.233.242 16:16, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Forgive me its hard to know if you rly are this bad or just a rly rly good troll.Lilondra *poke* 16:31, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Congratulations Lilondra! Another reply that makes absolutely no sense, fails to address the actual topic, and demonstrates that you are truly incapable of intelligent discourse. Are you all children? Is that it? Am I wasting time attempting to converse with a bunch of little kids? 217.234.233.242 21:25, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Explain to me where exactly I said you were the only one derailing the conversation. This is, by the way, why you look dumb - also because you must either be badly misinterpreting your game experiences or have extremely strange ones in order to honestly believe the crap coming out of your mouth. -- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 21:24, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

And congratulations Armond! Oh, and learn to read! Then go out and get a job, some friends, and a life. Maybe then you wont feel so insubstantial that you have to resort to insulting and abusive language. Grow up. 217.234.233.242 21:28, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

You resorting to ad hominum attacks because Liloandra did the same... And telling us, basically, to stop failing at life... The irony... it burnsssss... -- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 23:35, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Spah sapping mah Feedback! --ilr 23:43, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

You naturally have not resorted to attacks at all have you, Armond? Again, learn to read. You should at least be able to undestand what you have written - which consists of attacks and little else. I understand that it must be painful to you knowing that there are people who have different ideas and opinions than you, but learn to live with it. 217.234.200.172 14:05, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

So because we're doing it wrong, it's ok for you to do it wrong too?

Even that doesn't work, because you were doing it wrong long before the smart people here were. Try again.

-- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 14:55, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Subsection

Smart people? ROFL! This is neither the Nature website nor a form for MIT grads - You're trying to make yourself important on guildwiki, for Christ's sake. 217.234.200.172 16:20, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Discussing with retards doesn't work,They just aren't capable of discussing anything (Its amazing they can actually talk).Now first of all it looks like you just want to believe your statement.You are not open to any opinions at all.If one of the creators of Anet says it was built from the ground from PvP then perhaps it was just ... you know ... built from the ground for PvP.You know what the reviews said of prophecies ? "The Pve is good to keep you going for a while,but if you do get bored you can switch to the pvp" or something like that.Now The system of PvP is very simple.You take 8 skills * the party members,you invest your atts and you go.However in reality it can get really complex.Its like chess,while the idea is simple and easy to understand there are so many possibilities that is hard to actually get really good at it.Now the "removal" of content isn't removal.A) they are replacing it and b) it just isn't ran anymore because of poor balance and case of HB poor design.Wich brings us to another point : game balance.Hero's in HA are rarely seen as content.You know why ? They are gamebreaking content because of their reflexes.Basicly they give cheap wins.By design Guild Wars is a PvP game,Removing PvP would leave guild wars as a failed wow Lite.Its clear you have never pvp'd and you do not understand anything about how the game works.Its up to you,will you actually pull your head out of your ass and think things true ? Are you willing to actually get better and understand the stuff you are trying to talk about ? Or will you stay ignorant and try to discuss stuff and when people are facepalming/laughing at you resort to NPA instead.W/e you choose,Good luck cause you are going to need it Lilondra *poke* 16:59, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Wow! You actually addressed the content! Thank you. If you could do it without the insults it would be really impressive. Your arguments are not without warrant, but some of them fall wide of the mark:

• I never denied that Guild Wars was designed as a PVP game, though saying that it was designed only as a PVP game is rather ignorant, since the incredibly large amount of PVE content available from the very beginning is clearly demostrative of the fact that the game was also designed with PVE in mind - that is to say that Anet intended to provide both gaming experiences within one game. I merely suggested that PVP was broken (mostly because of the players themselves) and suggested removing it.
• I have played some PVP. Not alot because I couldn't - and can't - be bothered with the leeching, leaving, syncing, rank discrimination, and general bad attitudes and unsportsmanlike conduct displayed by most PVP'ers, all of whom seem to have forgotten that it is a game. ONLY A GAME! How you can assume that I have never played is beyond me since you do not know me, but if that somehow makes you feel superior, then go ahead and think that.
• Content is being removed from PVP. While it is certainly true that new content is being added, more is being removed than added. As for you first claiming that heroes are not content and then calling them "game breaking content" in your next sentence... surely I need not point out the contradiction further.
• It doesn't bother me in the least if you are all facepalming/laughing at me, since most of you haven't exactly tried to put forward a logical argument until now, but instead have simply resorted to name-calling and attacking. These are not the actions of thinking, reasonable people, and I could care less what such people think of me.

Thank you for addressing the content of my earlier suggestion despite the insulting manner in which you did it. My opinion hasn't changed, especially since the manner of attacks and the arrogance demonstrated here have reminded me of the things I most hate about PVP. It is, however, only my opinion, and Anets not likely to listen to it. There is really no reason for anyone to feel attacked by it... 217.234.200.172 19:48, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Shut up, Armond. You know as well as I do (and as well as Jette has stared earlier) that this discussion, insofar as it can be called such, is not going anywhere. I don't expect much from a random IP, but you know better. -- NUKLEAR IIV 20:01, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

@ IP

• since the incredibly large amount of PVE content available from the very beginning is clearly demostrative of the fact that the game was also designed with PVE in mind

Incredibly large amount of PvE content? You mean getting to level 20, finishing the last 5 or something missions, then being done with PvE entirely outside of farming ettins for sup runes? That wasn't very much content. Flyff has more PvE content and that game is entirely free.

• I merely suggested that PVP was broken (mostly because of the players themselves) and suggested removing it.

You are merely flat wrong. The players only exploit flaws in the game mechanics - flaws that wouldn't be there if ANet had competent designers, balancers, testers, and community reps. The biggest problem with PvP is lack of balance, which has nothing to do with the players. Also, removing PvP entirely when the game's premise was PvP would be unthinkably daft. How much actual PvE content have they added? DoA, now reduced to a 1 hour or less invincible-tank-and-nuke run? An entire PvE non-campaign grind of the north that added nothing fun, just a bunch of titles that you had to accumulate 160000 points to max and dungeons that were all the fucking same? Without PvP, Guild Wars is a very sub-par game. The PvE content, quite honestly, is a joke, compared to any other game that flaunts its PvE content as a selling point. Again, look at flyff. It is a terrible game, and it still has more PvE content (more fun PvE content) than Guild Wars.

• I couldn't - and can't - be bothered with the leeching, leaving, syncing...

Those don't happen in real PvP. Stop judging a game type on its lowest and least impressive arenas. AB and RA and shit are barely even PvP, and are mostly only PvP by strict definition, and not by any real standard.

• rank discrimination, and general bad attitudes and unsportsmanlike conduct displayed by most PVPers, all of whom seem to have forgotten that it is a game.

Reality train, last stop YOU! I'm assuming you weren't around for Ursan, because guess what? PvErs do that too. In fact, PvErs are worse than PvPers at it. In PvP, there are multiple skill levels - unranked teams forming, r3 teams, r5 teams, r9 teams, etc - in PvE, there was r10 norn and nothing else. If you tried to get in without a maxed rank title, they treated you like shit. I know, it's easy to try to find a pug in HA and be turned off by the assholes, but look at the fucking truth - PvErs do it as much as PvPers, and if you're unwilling to give HA a bit of time (grinding r3 in HA is about as hard as grinding r10 norn), then quit bitching, honestly. Rank discrimination is a part of both PvP and PvE in guild wars, and the only people who think otherwise are the folks who missed ursan and pretty much all of DoA before ursan (SF eles had to be rank 8 lightbringer to get in pugs). That "general bad attitude" is something displayed by players on both sides of the fence - claiming only PvPers have poor attitudes just shows extreme ignorance.

P.S., what do you think the response was when I told those PvE assholes that it was only a game and to stop taking it so seriously? Yeah, it was every bit as rude as one you'd expect from a PvPer.

• How you can assume that I have never played is beyond me since you do not know me, but if that somehow makes you feel superior, then go ahead and think that.

zzz irrelevant

• Content is being removed from PVP. While it is certainly true that new content is being added, more is being removed than added.

You know what happens when you get a tumor? It gets really big and fat and ugly and is a danger to your health. Guess what happens then? You get it removed. TA and HB were absolute shit. TA was good 3 years ago, and it hasn't been good since, and HB wasn't even PvP by even the loosest definition, so honestly, real PvP was losing nothing at all. As soon as Heroes' Ascent or Guild Battles start being removed, you can make that statement like it means something. Until then, they're just clearing trash out of the way, something real PvPers are thankful for. Now if they'd just remove cap points from Heroes' Ascent and heroes from PvP entirely...

• As for you first claiming that heroes are not content and then calling them "game breaking content" in your next sentence... surely I need not point out the contradiction further.

Yeah that was pretty dumb on his part.

• It doesn't bother me in the least if you are all facepalming/laughing at me, since most of you haven't exactly tried to put forward a logical argument until now, but instead have simply resorted to name-calling and attacking.

The problem I have with people like you is you think on a tiny scale. You aren't the first person, nor will you be the last, to discuss with us problems about the game. By the time we've explained ourselves logically and rationally 500 times, it gets pretty fucking old, not gonna lie. Just because you weren't there when we did so doesn't make us irrational, it just means we're tired of dealing with dipshits who have no fucking idea what they're talking about, and we're rather tired of starting entire discussions over again simply because there are more dipshits than smart/skilled players. You may or may not be such a dipshit - your post was well-written, even if it was mostly wrong, so I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt. But really, having to explain very basic stuff to people with not very much experience in real PvP is insanely frustrating, something that the people we explain it to never realize. After the 500th time, our trollish nature takes over, and we start calling them names, because we realize the stream of baddies will never stop and that we're just wasting our time trying to explain it to all of them. That obviously doesn't excuse the behavior of calling them names, but it would be very foolish to think that the name-callers you see here have never put forth an argument before, since the fact of the matter is, they've done it so many times they just don't care anymore. (Some people are just trolls who suck at guild wars and just want to make people mad, and those trolls can be ignored entirely - but ignoring a troll who is good at the game in a discussion about game mechanics and balance is the wrong thing to do).

Looking forward to your response :D -Auron 11:58, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Lol,I guess I don't have to explain any further since Auron released the better and uncut version Lilondra *poke* 13:54, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

@ Auron

Thanks for taking the time to address my comments, and I'm sorry it had to come to a monster wall of text.

• Incredibly large amount of PvE content? You mean getting to level 20, finishing the last 5 or something missions, then being done with PvE entirely outside of farming ettins for sup runes? That wasn't very much content.

PVE currently has 188 explorable areas (including dungeons, excluding hero training areas, and counting doa, uw, and fow as single areas), 89 Missions (counting the EotN primary quests and the bonus mission pack) and 906 additional quests. I call that a large amount of content, and very far from your suggested "get to level 20 and do the last few missions." Do you PVE at all?

• Flyff has more PvE content and that game is entirely free.

Flyff has 1 professsion unitl rank 15, then 4 professions until rank 60, then 8 professions thereafter. GW has 10 professions, all enjoyable from the start. Flyff has a grand total of 8 armours and 22 "clothes." The clothes have to be bought in the cash shop, so are hardly free. GW has 32 armours, 15 additional special armour pieces, and way too many festival hats. Flyff has 8 explorable areas, 4 dungeons, and a tower with 5 floors. That makes an incredible 17 areas, some of which are only accessed through tickets bought in the cash shop (coral islands and azria, for example.) This does not begin to compare with 188 explorable areas in GW PVE. Flyff has 159 total skills available. GW PVE has 1,319 skills available. Flyff has 7 trainable pets, GW has 38. Flyff has 86 quests, GW PVE has 906 quests, plus 89 missions. Saying that Flyff has more PVE content than GW is absurd and ludicrous.

• You are merely flat wrong. The players only exploit flaws in the game mechanics - flaws that wouldn't be there if ANet had competent designers, balancers, testers, and community reps. The biggest problem with PvP is lack of balance, which has nothing to do with the players.

So it is the designers, balancers, testers, and community reps fault that players exploit flaws? Rediculous. The players seek out those flaws and intentionally exploit them. That makes them wrong. Next you'll be saying that rapists are innocent and it's the womens fault for wearing short skirts and walking down dark streets all alone....

• Without PvP, Guild Wars is a very sub-par game. The PvE content, quite honestly, is a joke, compared to any other game that flaunts its PvE content as a selling point. Again, look at flyff.

Again, Flyff does not compare. The PVE content in GW is excellent in my opinion, if you disagree, well, that's your opinion.

• Those don't happen in real PvP. Stop judging a game type on its lowest and least impressive arenas. AB and RA and shit are barely even PvP, and are mostly only PvP by strict definition, and not by any real standard.

Hmmm... I've heard this many times. They are PvP in my opinion. In fact more so than HA, where I'll likely be facing heroes instead of people....

• Reality train, last stop YOU! I'm assuming you weren't around for Ursan, because guess what? PvErs do that too. In fact, PvErs are worse than PvPers at it.

I was around for Ursan, and never had problems getting on a doa team. You're right, there were some idiots there. Worse than PvP though? No way. Still I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here. It is entirely possible that I have had exceptionally bad experiences in PVP, and been lucky in PVE.

• You know what happens when you get a tumor?....

Lol, PvP a tumor! Great anology! Seriously though, I agree that HA would be improved by by tossing out the heroes (and not allowing henchies in either). Maybe then it would be real PvP. Right now it's kinda PVP&E. TA might not be shit if PvP'ers would use it instead of syncing into RA. The whole distinction you make concerning "real PvP'ers" has me wanting to remind you of my earlier statements concerning arrogance though.

• The problem I have with people like you is you think on a tiny scale....

No, actually I don't, but thanks for the nicety... I know that going over the same thing again and again can be irritating and frustrating. Hey, I'm an operations manager responsible for 1800 employees. I know how it is to be confronted with the same things day in and day out, month after month, year after year. Always new faces, but the same old questions... I understand that. I don't feel it excuses attacking those people; in fact, I've fired people for that kind of behaviour. One of the bad things about guildwiki is that people are so willing to behave like that. I guarantee you none of these people would insult me if I were standing in front of them. In real life they understand the importance of commen courtesy. Here they forget it. To them I would say: if you don't feel like rehashing something for the 500th time, then just don't. It's easy, and it saves alot of social duress. 217.234.218.41 23:37, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Most of us don't. My usual comments to people like you are pretty much the same as the humanity-hating "fucking kill yourself" posts you see in edit summaries when I revert vandals. I'd give you a big middle finger too, except even though you're a troll, you can spell correctly and are very consistent about it, so Brains would block me again. —Jette 23:47, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

A swing and a lol. Alright, my turn.

I've never played Flyff, but I have played GW PvE. It's, quite frankly, boring. Hard mode isn't hard, around half of the areas aren't worth paying attention to beyond the initial leveling process (Maguuma, Shing Jea, Kryta, Vabbi, and Kourna, I'm looking at you), and 60% of the PvE is "we provided you with a title to go around and do everything once, so you should go do that". (Also included in this category are those few missions left after you hit level 20 - i.e. the "finish X campaign/expansion/storyline because it's there" thing.) Another 10% is "you need to hit level 20 and get weapons/armor because that's our leveling process". (Not saying that's bad, but that's how it is.) The last 30% is "here's some areas that are supposed to be hard, and we'll even call them elite missions, but they're either bullshit hard or stupid easy". So much of GW PvE is designed around "ok, you can do this once and master it, now do it over and over and over and over again" - that's not content, surprise surprise.

Yes, it is the fault of the devs and testers and whatnot to make sure exploits don't get out. It is their responsibility by virtue of the fact that they are the devs. An exploit here and there that gets covered up pretty quickly isn't too bad - see SoGM bug - but things shouldn't sit around for forever and then get a half-assed fix (see guild lord + cyclone axe, shadow form, caster damage, dervishes, etc). Your rapist analogy isn't even remotely related - the woman has no responsibility to defend herself against a rapist that may or may not exist, and, in fact, has the right to not do so, by virtue of having human rights. By contrast, a game developer that isn't brain dead knows for a fact that anything he puts into the game runs the risk of being exploited in some way or another. As the designer, it's his responsibility to not put in bullshit mechanics and broken skills that will thus be exploited and to fix them - in a timely manner, mind you - when they get past him. If he doesn't, his game becomes unfun and thus he's failed at being a game designer.

"Real PvP", by Auron's definition, isn't "designed around the idea of being unbalanced due to its core factors and/or never receiving updates and/or a significant playerbase". RA, FA, AB, JQ, and HB all fall under those qualifications.

You never had problems getting into a DoA pug with ursan? Are we playing the same guild wars? Because, quite frankly, that sort of thing never happened. I'm also tempted to believe that you're subconsciously blowing/remembering your PvP experiences out of proportion because it supports your argument. (It's human nature. Everyone does it. See this paragraph.)

"Real PvPers" and "arrogance" are also pretty bullshit arguments. No one at r12-level skill wants to be held back by people who got their tigers by farming underworld with Searing Flames or IWAY or whatever. Thus, good players don't take bad players - not because they're arrogant and better than them (although both counts are mostly true), but because they want to actually have fun when they play. I got slipped into a pug r12 group once and, quite simply, it wasn't fun. I was holding the group back and knew it, and they - being PvPers that desperately wanted me to be not terrible so they could succeed - would continually point it out to me. And again, after pointing out the same things five hundred times, it gets fucking boring.

You don't think on a tiny scale? That's rich, given as Auron just proved you did by quoting you once. You go right ahead and fire people that point out people's stupidity - I would call you dumb if you were dumb to my face just as I'm calling you dumb here. The people you're firing are, realistically, one of two sets of people that try to get other humans to improve past the shittastic quality our species has descended to. "The importance of common courtesy" really isn't in the face of "the abundance of common stupidity".

Lastly, no, we're going to rehash it to you because we want you to not bug us about it in future. Any time we don't, said person either ends up becoming supremely arrogant and saying "well you didn't give me personally a direct explanation as to why I was wrong so therefore I must be completely right" or bitches at us until we give them a textwall (which is often ignored, to great irony, but at least they tend to leave us alone after that). It's even more annoying than having to write out stuff like this for the five hundredth time, trust me.

-- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 00:15, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

It's why I wubs my idiot blox. —Jette 00:21, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

(Reset indent) /rattles the cages to see what else flies out ~~000.00.00.00~~ 00:23, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

OH MY GOD THE INSECTS ARE EATING MY SUGAR CUBES -- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 00:26, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

So it is the designers, balancers, testers, and community reps fault that players exploit flaws? Rediculous.

David Sirlin, possibly the most successful (and best) game balancer on the planet, disagrees with you. If the game has faults, it is the fault of the people who created (or didn't fix) those faults. The players only use the game as much as it lets them. ~Shard 01:00, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Lol, I keep getting called a troll. I wonder if you know what that means? Also, you keep right on answering me; so if I am a troll, I'm a very good one, which is something at least. Then I could at least be proud of how well I'm playing you - you'd be like, my personal toys. Anyways, we're killing this page with these walls of text, and we're obviously not going to change each others minds, so let's stop. If you still want to flame away, I'll set up a user page for you to to take aim at... 217.234.218.41 01:18, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

So, your defense for being proven wrong is to say "lol I'm a good troll?" Whatever. ~Shard 01:21, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

proven wrong? lol, when did that happen? you have proven nothing. 217.234.218.41 01:23, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

I made it easy for you. I put it in a short, concise paragraph no more than an inch up the page. Ignoring points doesn't make you right. ~Shard 01:25, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Referencing David Sirlin - who has nothing to do with GW - via a link to a page which does not even contain the quote you suggest proves nothing, Toy. 217.234.218.41 02:16, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

wtb more walls of text OH WAIT.- Zesbeer 02:18, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Your comments had nothing to do with Guild Wars either. Your comments had to do with game design and flaws, which is exactly what Sirlin has the authority on. He literally wrote the book on it. Stop failing. ~Shard 03:05, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

It's pretty obvious he's just pulling a stupid and ignoring people who prove his bullshit wrong. You'd have to be really dumb to not understand that when talking about game design, game designers that have made millions of dollars are undoubtedly a better source of information than random IPs on the internet.

But we sort of knew that already. Anyone who thinks RA is anything but a pile of trash doesn't have a clue about real PvP and design flaws related to the game type, and when they aren't trying to learn how to suck less, they're just wasting our time. Cue the trolls, lost cause #139598 coming through. -Auron 05:12, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

What about making another template box ? (similar to the FoGB / gamebalance one) Lilondra *poke* 05:52, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Again, you have all proven nothing. Aurons arguments are fatally flawed as I showed above. When faced with actual numbers, his arguments deteriorated into insults. That is to be expected from someone who rants about how good "Flyff" is, lol. As for Shard's "best game balancer in the world" - he helped balance such incredible games as Balancing Puzzle Fighter, Yomi Fighting Card Game, and Street Fighter, and nothing else! ROFL!!!! Card games and Capcom crap for those old Nintendo, Amiga, and Atari consoles. A REAL Professional!!!! What an absolute joke! Lilondra has yet to post a useful argument or fact. He/she seems only to hide behind others and take an accasional potshot at me. Looking at the other games you all play - Flyff, Balancing Puzzle Fighter, and Yumi - it's not surprising that you are unable to effectivly argue your rather distorted points of view. You're obviously all a bunch of kids.

I also find it amazing that you claim, as PvP'ers, to be the crème de la crème of guild wars players, yet you can't stop crying about those unstoppable OP heroes! Rofl! The same heroes that PVE'ers hate because they consider them to be inept! Alos, if PVE is so unimportant to the game, and only meant as an add-on to the "real game," then how come you can't even form your PVP guilds without a PVE Character?

Learn something! 217.234.218.41 14:03, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't know if it still matters if I answer or not because your going to ignore any argument made and completely change the point.Auron didn't say how great flyf was he said EVEN flyf a free game had better pve then guildwars.Shure you can argue about that but if you want to prove someone wrong try to get his argument right first.Also Shard didn't say he was the best game balancer he said he actually had experience because you know he IS a game balancer to start with.Yes your right I'm sure that you are so leet you can smite off conditions instantly and interrupt even 1/4th spells.You know we just don't like to admit it that PvE players are a superior breed that have reflexes that surpass those of a computer and therefor are inhuman.Lilondra *poke* 14:17, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Your last paragraph has proven beyond a possible doubt that you have no idea what you're talking about and are, in fact, raving. You did nothing to address my counterarguments, you seem to claim that balance on old games is less professional (or less important, or something) than balance on more "modern" games (or whatever the hell you're thinking at this point) even though both WoW and GW are 4-5 years old at this point, you for whatever reason believe that Auron thinks Flyff is a good game just because it's got better PvE than Guild Wars does, you think that anyone claiming to be a PvPer automatically thinks they're great at game and PvE is unimportant, and you claim that because you cannot properly comprehend our arguments (which, despite what you may think, are not presented badly) everyone involved must be a bunch of kids.

You've been acting pretty professional yourself, for a guy in charge of 1,800 employees. Where do you work again? I'll make sure to never apply there. :/

-- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 14:46, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Lol, you need not apply there, Armond, you would never be accepted. We require at least a high schoold degree in even the lowest postions. This obviously excludes you. You continue to fail at reading. You have managed to misrepresent everything I say. Congratulations on being so effective at failing. I've always believed that if you are going to do something, you should do it right. At least you're doing that right. If you truly believe that balancing an old capcom game is just as difficult as balancing a game with over 1300 skills, then you are not really in contact with reality. I have not addressed your counter-arguments because they were not based in any way upon fact or reason, but rather were the type of emotional outbursts that I am coming to expect from you. I'm not addressing Lilondra's statements for the same reason. I wonder, did any of you ever stop to think that many of these "OP" things in the game you continually cry about are not realy "OP"? Maybe you're just UP (that's Under-Powered, since you probably can't figure it out yourself). I mean, I've seen all you on this wiki crying about heroes, SF, Ursan, Sins and Rits in general, and dozens of other skills for so long that I wonder how you can possible still consider yourselves elite. Isn't it embarrassing to pretend to be elite while constantly crying that something is just too tough for you? Yeah, Probably you're just UP. QQ more. 217.234.218.41 15:09, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Holy...fuck...walls o' text everywhere...0.0 For the love of sweet God, people. Break this kinda shit up into sections. Karate Jesus 15:09, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

This just in: IP doesn't actually play Guild Wars. King Neoterikos 00:08, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

I've been watching this for a long time now, and I think it's time to finally say something. @IP, your argument that Armond/Shard/Lilondra/Auron are bad at the game simply because they are being overpowered by imbalanced aspects is completely ignorant. The exact same thing could be said for you, and even more so, because you complain that PvP is too emotionally stressing, because of bad sportsmanship. Welcome to competition. Armond is right, judging from your behavoir, I wouldn't believe that you really supervise however many people, and it really shows because you can't even keep a discussion with three other people civil. Isn't a prerequisite of being manager of anything, the ability to steer situations the way you need them to, without resorting to force? The Flyff argument was to point out that GW PVE is so packed with fail that even substandard games are more appealing, I agree with Auron, I get much more fun out of things like Pong and Asteroids. The point Shard was making is that success is built on strong foundations, so I believe that whatever game balancer he quoted up there would be better for GW than Izzy, simply because of prior experience. If you can balance a capcom game, you can move on to bigger and more complex things. Izzy can't balance GW, that has been shown time and time again, so there's no use in disputing the fact that he has butchered his job, and part of the fault is not his, but smart decisions on his part would put him a lot closer to the mark. You complain that their arguments have deteriorated into insults, but perhaps they are exhausted of explaining the same thing to you over and over? They didn't claim to be managers for thousands of people, you came to them. You claim to be in charge of oh so much, and claim to be able to handle oh so much, and then do the same thing they did, filthy hypocrite. You say they're crying because of things that are overpowered in the game, who was just crying about the entire PvP format? The fact remains that GW is mostly a PvP game, because the PVE content is extremely substandard. WoW has much more PvE content than GW, if you want to go there. If you can't believe any of that, then think about it this way: if they are wrong, then why have so many other experienced players agreed with them from the start? If you want to try and dispute the fact that these people are skilled in GW, you're trying to cut down a tree with a feather. I've played with all of them except Auron, and believe me, they know exactly what they are doing. -- Tha Reckoning 00:29, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Ok, enough NPA violations here to ban the whole lot of you. Just stop this. It's getting no one anywhere, and is going to end up in an ugly pile up on the ban list. -- Wyn talk 00:40, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Lawl, I find so funny how people can turn a single fact that gw is a dieing game into a huge argument with huge walls of text, insults, fighting ect. Though I must admin they were very well written wall of texts so I kinda enjoyed reading them. :P Nectarines // 15:31 25 September 2009(UTC) 15:31, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't have much to add that hasn't already been said, but man, calling Street Fighter II old capcom crap? Seriously dude, not cool. -- Staples - talk 16:09, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

R/A nerf

Thank you ! (unsigned) FINALLY!--99.243.162.52 00:23, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Yay I got my TRPs!!!!!

Oh....wait..... 75.61.32.166

You got your points ??? Hmm... Tiberium 07:35, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Btw

Um...Anet...I think you missed the point. [1] Karate Jesus 15:08, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Yep that's exactly what I thought, thanks for pointing it out though...Tyraelxy 16:01, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I've always wondered why Crit Strikes isn't a req for certain 'sin skills/effects, or why more skills aren't tied to the att to make 'sins 'unique'. IE: "if Crit Strikes >4, then these attacks activate in 1/2 sec", etc. Poof, no more ass-hat R/As, x/As, etc. Something like this could prbly be applied to shadow steps as well to get rid of the after cast for A primaries & make shadow steps useful again. - i n s i d i o u s 420 19:00, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Good job

^ No sarcasm. I've got very bored of seeing almost constant whining and complaining about updates, and just wanted to say that I think you're doing a great job, more than ever recently. 81.157.162.123 16:10, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

TBH

If any of you are whining on about the SS nerf you should be ashamed, if you can't heal without it you should not be a monk at all, SS removed all challenge in healing and the PS nerf, while maybe a bit sudden, should not stop people from using it, face it, it was OP and healing will not suddenly be impossible after this update...So please stop whining about thatTyraelxy 16:06, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

^ --Super Igor 16:12, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

We don't really care about SS anymore, as PvE is already easy enough. PS was most used Monk skill there ever was, so it deserved a little reminder (+1sec is nothing in PvE, PvP is another story) of its mortality. Also, your comment is not very useful for the community. Flaming can be done in GWGuru, or some other forums. Mediggo 16:56, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

My gods I was right IQ's did drop sharply. SS was buffed because it was underpowered for an PvE skill, only to be nerfed back worse than when it was originally buffed, just because you feel players shouldn't be using it, doesn't give you a right to be vindictive, please feel free to stop trolling anytime now. Anon-e-mouse 17:36, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Yup, you and anyone else who whines about SS and MoR nerfs are a living proof to that. --Super Igor 18:59, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I contend that areanet is being bad. Instead of nerfing all of the good skills and limiting what will be run, they should be buffing underpowered and inferior options so that we will see some more diversity ingame. The PS nerf is not so bad game mechanic-wise as much as it is philosophy-wise. Instead of buffing some of the crappy spells in the healing prayers line(eg. orison of healing) to the point that somebody would consider using them, areanet just nerfed moar. Bleh. 69.150.78.228 20:09, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I think that Anet continues to nerf till there is nothing left to nerf and if they buff something just wait few weeks and it gets nerfed =P there never will be perfect balance in GW 89.166.101.7 21:07, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Actualy since these are "talk pages" where doesnt does matter wtf you say, keep the QQing and flaming here and leave the forums outta this. 72.183.202.229 21:08, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

If you keep all overpowered skills and buff underpowered ones on top of that you end up with powercreep like the one Izzy has created. So basically you are suggesting to ruin this poor game even more, gfg. --Super Igor 21:12, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

it's the fact no QQ ing involved at least the part that there never will be perfect balance in GW. 89.166.101.7 21:18, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

How it would increase the powercreep if some of the weaker skills would be buffed equal to those skills what we have now how it s different from nerfing overpowered skills to equal with the more underpowered skills ? and Anets nerfs at least some of them goes too far instead of trying to balance some of the skills they kind of just "Delete" them from game just like shroud of silence and smiters boon. 89.166.101.7 21:29, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Cuz in order for these skills to be useful they have to be in par with skills already in use which are all overpowered in one way or another. Nerf every broken thing first then buff. --Super Igor 21:32, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

what's the point of nerfing everything and then buffing everything doesn't make sense and there will always be something broken. 89.166.101.7 21:47, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Igor is right this time, things like Orison and PS (now) aren't actually underpowered, everything else is just so overpowered that PS was able to keep on par with damage when used extremely skillfully in it's older form, and whenever healing is anywhere close to on par with damage, morons start QQing. -- Tha Reckoning 21:56, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

just to make it clear i wasnt just talking about monks skills or skills in this update only i was talking about all skills generally 89.166.101.7 22:43, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

So were they. Take a look at things like Wounding Strike, Searing Flames, Chilling Victory (better now, but still), etc. -- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 23:13, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

(Reset indent) OH GOD NO, It was giving lolbad PuG backliners too much energy? If they really wanted to Nail an O^P Factions track skill, they should gone after Save Yourselves. It's the only thing that truly puts the "Imba" in no-skill Imbagons & Scythe tanks. --ilr 04:20, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

lol @ Scythe tanks. --Super Igor 09:50, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Lol now that R/A's are nerfed in pvp there is a pve R/A dagger build being vetted on pvx now -.-Tyraelxy 14:05, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

By scythe tank, I'd assume he means W/D WE scythe. -~=Sparky (talk) 17:02, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

His point was warrior != tank. -- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 20:18, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

They will the instant that SFs and Terras are finally nerfed. ...And it's not like SF'ers can get a whole lot of use out of CritScythes anyway when they're forced to run Paradox. In any case, it's the most ridiculous shout in the game and just one more excuse for the Devs to never get around to actually balancing Paras properly. It needs to Go away, NOW. ...not next year, NOW --ilr 20:36, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Obvious nerf to my upcoming build

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/User:Rypofalem/Team:Care_Bear_Way Rypofalem 14:33, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

That wouldn't work as intended anyway, as Arcane Echo can only copy spells, and Ether Prism is a skill.173.88.136.15 15:52, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Echo mimicry, not prism. Rypofalem 16:34, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

obvious nerf to your build that you made 2 days after the nerf. gg. 24.34.231.13 16:52, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Ow how IP's always ignore sarcasm Lilondra *poke* 16:54, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

cant be sarcastic on the internets, internets is srs bsns. 24.34.231.13 16:57, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Why Shadowform isn't nerfed yet and why you're bad

Shadowform is officially recognized as "needing a nerf". It isn't being nerfed yet because they're trying to nerf it in a way that will - instead of pushing the farm meta to another gimmick that you'll start crying about - cause the community to want to play the zones normally instead of feeling the need to farm them in 3 minutes. If you think you know how to balance the game in such a way, you don't because it's not about skill changes or changing hard-mode (which is all that I ever see on user pages).

I would like to also point out that 600/s has turned EOTN elite zones into pre-searing and only requires 2 players. Shadow form actually requires a full team of 8 because it's not actually "god mode", even if your character was moving 10x as fast in order to make up for the other squads, some areas can't be finished with the same build. Despite this everyone is crying over MoR even though 600/s is still viable and claiming anet doesn't know what they're doing by nerfing x before SF. 600/s should have been wiped off the face of Tyria.

And yes, Anet HAS STATED officially that SF is a problem in their eyes. This means they're actually planning on "nerfing" it. If you're upset that you have to wait half a year from now for it, why don't you and your MSN contact list spend that half of a year at Anet trying to run and balance the game. Enjoy your population of about 30 people.

Scroll down, read, shut up! Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә & ѕνәи Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ

This rant has everything, except for a cogent point... --ilr 20:45, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

He's trying to defend Anet on one of the worst things they've ever done to the game, and I'm not really buying it. ~Shard 21:17, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

is it really the worst thing they have done to this game? i mean i can think of one hole game format that they are finally removing that was the worst thing they ever did to this game, and just heroes in pvp general was rather bad. also pve who cares-- Zesbeer 21:23, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

And no, it's not Team Arenas.Warherox 21:24, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. Shadow Form has always been troublesome, Team Arenas used to have a purpose. ~Shard 21:28, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

i was not talking about team arenas -- Zesbeer 21:38, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

See, this is why we preferred your old translations, Shard. --ilr 22:01, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Shard, why the fuck are you replying to a topic started by a known troll? -- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 22:49, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

No, I actually love shadow form. My point is people don't seem to read/care about anything that's been said so they go on and on about how Guild Wars is dying and how Shadowform is the apocalypse. Also I hate 600/s. You guys sit in your pre-searing dungeons making 20k a run every 10 minutes while you scream and cry at 8-man team builds. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә & ѕνәи Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 18:45, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I am going to summarise my thoughts on farming & team play: if you want to make money, you should be able to do it own your own. In fact, you should be almost required to do it alone. If you want to play the game, y'know, for fun, then you do it with other people. This is the exact opposite of how the game is today. Players who want to play the game do it with 7 henchmen/heroes while stupid farmers who want to make money while they masturbate in another window play in 8-man groups. Nobody plays for fun anymore, they play to max X gay title or earn Y retardedly rare item. Guild Wars = WoW Lite, except Wow PvP is more balanced because it doesn't have invincibility mechanics. —Jette 18:50, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

by invincibility mechanics do you mean Healing Breeze, and echo mending right?-- Zesbeer 20:58, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I just play for fun. Otherwise I would do PvE, HA, and GvG a lot more than I do now. Also, I wouldn't use Melandru's Shot as part of my dagger chain on my sin. -~=Sparky (talk) 21:42, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Pretty funny that Jette's "WoW is balanced bit".--Wealedout 21:48, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

No, what's funny is that he's right, you're wrong, and you don't know it. -- Tha Reckoning 22:10, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

[2] [3] [4] -- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 22:41, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I think we all play for fun mate.Some people just run lamebuilds to farm a title (rly titles ruined alot) Lilondra *poke* 06:00, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

7/10. Minus points because you pretend Shadow Form is balanced. -Auron 06:52, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

^ Generous score. ~~000.00.00.00~~ 00:39, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

While alice does have a completely different opinion then me on some things I must admit that she (she right ?) atleast has some solid points.Lilondra *poke* 05:58, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

what she is saying is right it came directly from linsey's mouth.-- Zesbeer 06:03, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

No my friends. Saying I hate 600/s doesn't mean I think there's nothing wrong with shadowform. I may have had a lot of fun with it but I'm not an idiot. Shit is OP. Also thankyou Armond, I was about to point out the lack of invincibility in WoW (lol) but you got it. Jette is a mega-troll who just happens to be able to parrot facts about the state of the game which makes him almost sound smart. Again the point of my post was to bring everyone up to speed on the plans for Shadowform, and to throw dirt on the 600/s kids who cry about shadowform TEAMS not being nerfed, and then cry more when their two-man Reflega build gets touched by a feather. If your issue is over-farming than why would you be supporting the easiest most abusive farm? Why didn't you mention the folks who pay tips in the 10-20k~ region to have two monks play the game for them? Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә & ѕνәи Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 20:21, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

"jette is a mega-troll"

zomg u npa me wai ;_; —Jette 20:56, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Because, quite honestly, ANet hasn't shown themselves to be in any way competent and fixing SF clears only requires nerfing one skill while fixing 600/smite requires fixing more. (IIRC you can make prot bond barely work even if prot spirit isn't used, but don't quote me on that.) -- Armond Warblade{{Bacon}} 21:50, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

*SQUAACK!* Spirit Bond fux UR mom! *SQUAACK!* --ilr 08:04, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Can't you just Revamp Holy wrath,Retribution and Famine ? Lilondra *poke* 10:25, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Sure, let's revamp 2 more monk skills, and a ranger elite, all to stop monks, rather than fixing SF to stop EVERYONE from complaining, let's ruin two OTHER classes further, so they can complain more. Delorean 13:12, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

I've added this idea to reduce farming without nerfing skills, what do you think about it ? Nikademo 13:32, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Why not to be other ? Shure SF is a problem but so is 600 smite and those skills are barely/not used outside of that niche now Lilondra *poke* 15:16, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Alright I'm really sad now. Why don't you get it? THE PROBLEM is not Shadow form, THE PROBLEM is not 600/s, the problem is the SPEED CLEARS and zero incentive to play the game any other way (inb4 i play for fun because i'm lucky enough to be in a competant and/or active guild). You cannot fix this by nerfing skills. Before Ursan there were "fast fast supah" builds, Ursan Blessing was nerfed and there were "UWSC LF MTS AND VALE NO FAIL BRING CONS" and "EOTN RUN 10 MINUTES 20K"; yeah let's just keep nerfing everything so that we can cry about the next power-farm until our vocal chords are tattered. Maybe they've finally become quite competent and are looking at the real issues (why are people doing this instead of doing that?). Unless your idea of balanced is where game areas are scaled up in time. There will always be the fastest way and everyone will only play that, no one wins unless you're a power-trader on the forums but you're not playing the game anyway. UNLESS (gasp) Dwayna comes in, plucks a hair from her head, and casts a miraculous spell of innovation.

Anyway, coming back down to earth, shadowform is nothing compared to 600/s, you guys are rediculous. It's scary that you can't see the stupidity of being able to hard mode steam roll every dungeon in the game with two people, which also allows 6 other losers to pay their way through "elite lvl 20 content". And then there's Shadowform which let's people make money to buy this game's overpriced bullshit, but you need 8 COMPETENT people and even then PUG success rates are at 50%~. And by the way, don't plan on finding a guild that will fix this, I was in one of the supposed top guilds and there was only a max of 3 people on at one point who wanted to UWSC. They were trained and everything and they STILL failed sometimes. Plus, shadow form isn't steamrolling an entire campaign. If Anet can destroy 600/s while they work on innovating, awesome. /bias Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә & ѕνәи Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 20:47, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

They're trying to nerf both. They may be trying to nerf SF (the skill), but they're also trying to nerf dungeon running and SC's. So, I imagine you'll see them nerfed soon. Karate Jesus 20:53, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

I understand your point.My point just is both are a problem and if you nerf both there will be another meta yes but you might be able to differ a bit more Lilondra *poke* 16:19, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

MoR reverted, where is my Ursan revert? Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә & ѕνәи Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ

Patient Spirit

I'm still going to use it. It's 1 second. Woo.-- anguard 20:49, 24 September 2009 (UTC)