User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/Update20080306

From Guild Wars Wiki

Note: Sign your comments by typing ~~~~

Contents 1 General comments 2 Guild vs. Guild 2.1 Victory or Death 2.2 Victory is Ours 3 Assassin 3.1 General Comment On Assassins. 3.2 Augury of Death 3.3 Dark Prison 3.4 Shadow Prison 3.5 Shroud of Silence 3.6 Siphon Speed 4 Dervish 4.1 Grenth's Aura 4.2 Mystic Regeneration 4.3 Pious Assault 4.4 Wounding Strike 5 Elementalist 5.1 Aftershock 5.2 Blinding Flash 5.3 Crystal Wave/Teinai's Crystals 5.4 Double Dragon 5.5 Flame Burst 5.6 Flame Djinn's Haste 5.7 Frozen Burst 5.8 Glyph of Energy 5.9 Glyph of Lesser Energy 5.10 Inferno 5.11 Lightning Orb 5.12 Mind Blast 5.13 Rodgort's Invocation 5.14 Shock Arrow 5.15 Shockwave 5.16 Ward Against Foes 5.17 Ward Against Melee 5.18 Ward Against Melee 6 Mesmer 6.1 Cry of Frustration 6.2 Enchanter's Conundrum 6.3 Imagined Burden 6.4 Power Leak 6.5 Power Lock 6.6 Psychic Instability 6.7 Simple Thievery 7 Monk 7.1 Guardian 7.2 Heal Party 7.3 Reversal of Damage 7.4 Symbol of Wrath/Kirin's Wrath 8 Necromancer 8.1 Deathly Swarm 8.2 Enfeeble 8.3 Enfeebling Blood 8.4 Foul Feast 8.5 Plague Sending 8.6 Plague Signet 8.7 Rip Enchantment 8.8 Strip Enchantment 8.9 Vampiric Swarm 8.10 Wail of Doom 8.11 Weaken Armor 9 Paragon 9.1 Barbed Spear 9.2 Blazing Spear 9.3 Mending Refrain 9.4 Song of Restoration 10 Ranger 10.1 Crippling Shot 10.2 Hunter's Shot 10.3 Pin Down 11 Ritualist 11.1 Ancestors' Rage 11.2 Death Pact Signet 11.3 Soothing Memories 12 Warrior 12.1 "Shields Up!" 12.2 "Watch Yourself!" 12.3 Axe Rake 12.4 Axe Twist 12.5 Gash 12.6 Lion's Comfort 12.7 Magehunter's Smash 12.8 Mokele Smash 12.9 Sprint 13 Nerf Bat usage 14 Nerfing

[edit] General comments

I love you izzy, balance is once again restored to tyria.. User 24.141.45.72 20:26, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

GG for makeing eles more op then ever before, you dont know when to stop neffing things GIVE MORE BUFFS TO THE USELESS SKILLS IN THE GAME.75.165.122.205 20:37, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

looks like mostly nerfs this time. 70.132.2.120 20:56, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Lawl he didnt buff teh eles, he nerft them User 24.141.45.72 21:15, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Wow, this is the best skill change EVER. So many useless skills are now useable, and a lot of OP skills took a hit. 2 thumbs up. Mr.Hobo 21:20, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Stance monks have to come back with the nerf to glyph and the buff to KD User 24.141.45.72 21:29, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm certainly not liking this update. A lot of PvE builds got hit once again thanks to Anet's precious PvP. Running/farming fire ele builds to name a few 201.174.197.61 22:02, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

With ele's I'm annoyingly finding my solo/farming builds have been buffed thanks to the pbaoe aftercast lessening, but AOE team builds (MB, Rogs etc), nerfed. Wonder if its a hint? 195.137.66.215 23:12, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

With that if I beg enough is there any chance you'll buff balanced stances duration? :( 74.229.66.241 22:05, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

While I disagree with some of Izzy's changes, I also see the wisdom in some other changes (like Wounding Strike). Overall, I like the update. Nicky Silverstar 23:21, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

(Edit on some Points: reformulation, because I wrote also comments that were just crap...sry!) I like a lot of the changes but with some skills this update is not about balancing but about killing them. I think on your suggestion page were better possibilities to balance some skills: for "Shields Up!" there were some nice suggestions on your page (pls look @ the discussion), not everyone of the community thought "Mind Blast" was OP (see also discussion on your page), there is a better suggestion for "Grenths Aura". I don't remember "Shroud of Silence" and "Shadow Prison" being the biggest problems on Sinspilt, they were (especially "Shroud") nerfed too much over all for being elite (without balancing the biggest problem on Sins - shadow stepping!). "Flame Djinn's Haste" was already nerfed enough (with the murder of "Mystic Regeneration", it is hard to play =this build your fighting against). You should remove elite status of "Glyph of Energy" now (compared to GoLE) or change it to 1...2 Spells (and making the exhaustion prevention also conditional on having skilled Energy Storage). "Mystic Regeneration" now is a bad selfheal even for primary Dervishes. "Ward Against Melee" was nice balanced (only against melee classes, expensive and stationary) now it is bad even on Eles. "Mending Refrain" was already balanced and you did a good job (but now you've gone too far imho). "Watch Yourself!" was nerfed in a terrible way (pls remove the recharge on this skill with the new mechanic). As I suggested to buff counter skills against the Block-Meta you said that you don't want to have BuildWars instead of GuildWars, what i liked tbh. But while killing some skills instead of buffing counter skills and buffing other skills you also will create a BuildWars feeling and reduce the variety of skills overall. You know (or I suggest you know), that about 60-70% of skills aren't usefull compared to those which people use (in Meta). Buffing more bad skills maybe would increase the variety ingame and this is the only way to see new Builds, not by decreasing possibilities of synergies... Besides my critics I want to say you did imho a good job on all those skills I haven't mentioned, but I think you have to rework some skills and I hope you will do this! A. von Rin 23:40, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

My Ranger fanaticism is well known, but I also occasionally play a Warrior and a Mesmer. As such, I think this is a great update, and that's probably the first time I've ever said that, ever. Pin Down gets a buff, a bunch of my favorite War skills get buffs (I don't really care about Watch Yourself, although I do think it's sad this skill was ruined by Paragons, not Warriors), and the new Psychic Instability looks like terrific fun. Because I'm feeling this good, you will not be subjected to the usual litany of useless Ranger skills this time. Feel blessed. :P Arshay Duskbrow 00:37, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Lol did some1 whine about PvE builds gettin owned? Cry more u and ure PvE Skills.. User 24.141.45.72 01:59, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I hope you don't want to flame on my comment, but in case you did: I will cite your user page as evidence for your failure - "GvG More". This is what you should do instead of posting these useless "contributions"... (Edit: Sry @ 24.141.45.72, the way my formulation was sounded very noobish. But what I've wrote now (little edit) is my point of view - being failure or not. But your flame wasn't ok, cause I didn't attack anyone personal or something like that - you did!). A. von Rin 02:13, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Just wondering, did you somehow miss all the QQing about sinsplits A. von? In fact, I'm not sure I agree with half of your negative reactions. There are other places beyond this talk page where feedback is produced. Forums such as the ones from Guild Wars Guru which actually have notable top 10 gvg'ers posting suggestions are also included in the mix. PlacidBlueAlien 07:00, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Leadership: "You gain 1 Energy for each ally affected by one of your Paragon attributed Shouts or Chants (maximum 1 Energy for every 2 ranks)." /rollback warrior shout changes --Just One More Thing 07:22, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

If ur going to butt rape sins like that, can you at least give us one (1) buff?--The Gates Assassin 07:56, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Do you guys at ANet even care about PvE?? Honestly... MiraLantis 08:20, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Of course they do :( , Anet cares about everything ;( 86.62.250.4 08:24, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I am both a PvP and PvE player and IMO people need to be a little more imaginative and come up with new ways to beat the computer AI (PvE) than to do things the same way over and over again. I like constant changes to skills because it gives a degree of new experience when beating campaigns again. I also like changing the way I solo farm because repeatedly doing something over and over again is boring. When people rant about how it affects PvE, it just tells me how unimaginative and uncreative they are. This update nerfed some PvE skills like Rodgot’s Invocation, Mind Blast, Flame Djinn’s Haste, Ancestor’s Rage and etc, but it also buffed many skills like PBAoE, Lion’s Comfort, Deathly Swarm, Soothing Memories and etc. Rodgot’s Invocation did not get nerfed if you think back to the old days when recharge was 15 seconds; overall, it got buffed since GW came out. Sorry if it offends anyone but it is how I feel. --Shadetz X 09:40, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

@The Gates Assassin I think some people are peeved about sin teams winning GvG months in a row. --Shadetz X 09:47, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Still, buff SOMETHING. They just nuke and take shits on the sin builds and then he makes the WoD necro. WTF? In their "meetings" are they even discussing this? WoD is the most overpowered idea with a 10 second recharge, and it is in the game right now. And they decide that Siphon speed is overpowered. umm what?--The Gates Assassin 11:06, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

One quick point I wanna make while youre killing off midline it seems. Have you ever just tried 2 monks or even 3 with just 5 others? Even with good monks its a struggle having to deal with every single thing and already some new monks cant keep up with things as they are. Which doesnt bother me because it makes me feel better about myself xD but thats not the point. Simply put midline is needed and if you intend on nerfing it all at this pace "reducing blind, changing shouts, nerfing ward and armor stacking, buffing shutdown and offence" there are going to be no happy monks. So I'll be expecting the next balance on monks to be a huge buff instead of more nerfs ^-^ cheers. 74.229.66.241 15:48, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Well Izzy, two thumbs up for making like 20 skills and a class as whole useable again! Dark Morphon(contribs) 16:43, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Overall, I think I like the changes, my main form of PvP is GvG, and its the constant defense draws things out to long, hopefully this update turns all the defense skills into more of a reactive game as oppose to cast and forget. Gosu Death 18:02, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Guardian nerf=retarded, Cripshot nerf=retarded, MB nerf (after ViO "removal") =retarded, SP nerf doesn't really matter, that's why it's not bad but retarded. 151.49.120.139 20:30, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

So, this is what a skill balancer does... sweet, can I get paid to do this? I can screw things up just as good as you. House Of Furyan 09:37, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Are you serious? He brought back a whole class and some skills, what's the prob? Dark Morphon(contribs) 09:46, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Which class you think he brought back? Necros? If so..yeah, just another broken skill so that a class gets use also in gvg. GFG. 151.49.89.94 15:32, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

To every1 asking about PvE.... No-one(good) including ANET cares about PvE balance. Thats why you have your Ursan Blessing. Now lets not talk about PvE anymore cause NO-ONE CARES :) User 24.141.45.72 18:30, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

I love doin GvG and such, but I also love my PvE, and saying no one good does PvE is complete and utter bullshit. And saying no one cares about PvE when there are tons of people complaining about ursan blessing, is also stupid, all your doing is making yourself look like a stupid 11 year old kid. Some people care about pve just as much as you and your precious pvp. Gosu Death 18:49, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

ANet certainly should care about PvE because they make most of their money with it. But the fact that Ursan Blessing is still dominating PvE and destroying every last bit of fun there was in it but still no one cares to fix this completely broken skill makes me doubt they do. Not a very clever way to promote GW2 imho. Beetlejuice 08:42, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Do you have a better solution for balancing the professions in high-end PvE without ruining PvP balance? -- Gordon Ecker 09:23, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Nerf Ursan? — ( ɔ \ ʇ ) uɐɥʇıǝɹ 13:57, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm seriously getting sick and tired of stupid comments, theres PvE skills and everything and even they have been balanced so you cant say they dont care about PvE. And in HM where level 30s can kill you in a few hits you need something stronger than youd have in PvP hence it being a PvE only skill. Ursan alone isnt too strong its when you have like 6 which is the case for every build, if that is overpowered SF needs several hits because its all I saw doing DoA with a obby tank and monks. But in all honesty even Ursan groups fail at times and it's not like you cant beat PvE, hell tons of people have done it all and tons of people have failed and thats how you know its balanced. What I saw here was mostly PvP Meta skills touched so how did PvE even come up? And to Gosu, maybe its the people whining about a single skill some people dont even bother to use that are acting like 11 year olds honestly you dont HAVE to use it and if you dont have GW:EN and cant get it I'd understand some of your frustration but by no means does it stop other builds from working. But personally I really dont care I just fine however this argument came up and went on really annoying and rather stick to the subject of THIS update.74.229.66.241 15:26, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, then don't post here if you get tired of your own comments. Ursan teams are not only the easiest way to conquer almost any area in the game, including and especially elite areas, but they are also the by far most efficient way. Which leads to 90% and increasing using this 3 skill combo above everything else. Even you should see that this is somewhat not balanced.

Or to formulate it differently so that your narrow-minded comprehension skills can grasp it, imagine there would be a pvp skill, lets call it wail of doom, that would be a ranged shut down skill for 1 energy with 1/4 sec castingtime and short recharge. Soon everyone would run around with it and if you want to still be competitive you would have to use this too. Now imagine that this skill would scale really good the more ppl in your team use it and also would remove your whole skill bar with 3 skills (that are completely uncounterable and therefore completely brainless to use) and then you have the problem we have right now with UB. UB turned this from a game with hundreds of skills and 10 classes into a game with 3 skills and no class. Really, even you can't fail to see that this is neither balanced nor "just ok". Beetlejuice 11:04, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

@Gordon: Yes, you can read it under skill suggestions:Ursan. But obviously no one responsible reads that section or is so centered around pvp that he does not get the severity of the problem. Beetlejuice 11:04, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Then theres a section for over/underpowered skills you can post that on,seeing how it wasnt touched this update why is it on the updates page? And if they nerf Ursanway then people will probably either go back to a obby tank with SF eles or make anew build, what then? You want those all nerfed too? If anything this gives classes like mesmer and paragon which are less likely to be picked for a group a lot easier time getting things done. And for the next post lets imagine this skill called wail of doom and see what it does to such things as infuse holy veil return prot spirit and other skills with set effects and numbers that just lengthen the effect or increase it a bit. Its not a total shut down you can still do things and RC still removes all conditions and yadayada. Or did you not bother to think about that? That Ursan lacks AoE has a down time when it comes off and relies on hours grinded over attributes and such on how effective it is. Everything has its down sides but if something must be done as suggested make the attacks counterable and whatnot. You seem to ignore the fact a good a balanced or thought out build can outdo Ursan but I guess people just gave up on skill when pugging xD 74.229.66.241 19:28, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, you're right Beetlejuice, sorry, I gave the standard canned response because I forgot about your posts at User:Isaiah Cartwright/PvE/Ursan Blessing‎ and User talk:Isaiah Cartwright/PvE/Ursan Blessing‎ and thought you might have been making one of those "PvE was fine when half the professions were useless" arguements. -- Gordon Ecker 01:23, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure if it was in this discussion, but on that topic i already explained why this "half of the professions" argument is moot. Mesmers make by far the best nukers now (armor ignoring extremly spiky dmg), ritus can nuke as good (maybe even better) than eles too, paragons can make great bips, Dervishes can tank. Only problem are Assassins (i think shadowform tanking is dead) and Rangers (mostly no line of sight). And even they don't need UB to be viable. With Raven Blessing they can fit in any balanced team without dominating the whole team build and destroying fun for everyone else. Btw, those are all tested in hard mode doa, thats nothing i just make up. Beetlejuice 01:34, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

By "when half the professions were useless", I meant "before they added Sunspear and Kurzick / Luxon skills in the June 15th, 2007 update", back when dervishes had no way of sustaining their forms and mesmers had no reliable AoE nukes other than Energy Surge and Chaos Storm, I was referring to the "Guild Wars was better without PvE skills" crowd, anyway, I shouldn't have made that post. Mesmer and ritualist nukers are viable right now, but I'm not comfortable with their current situation because they rely on a small number of skills which are fairly useful in PvP, and, therefore, vulnerable to nerfs, while elementalists have numerous redundant nukes, many of which are weak in PvP, making the profession resistant to nerfs. As for Ursan Blessing, IMO it could survive a few more hits from the nerf bat. -- Gordon Ecker 09:22, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

All you need for nuking nowadays is Cry of Pain, Arcane Echo and Echo, so unless they nerf Cry of Pain (which as a pve skill does not interfere with pvp issues) i don't see a nerf coming there. Energy Surge is nice as an arcane echo filler for hex removal heavy areas but hex stacking and good reflexes do the job just as well. Spirit Rift is a nice dps filler if your spike went wrong, but again if you time your spikes it is not needed either. Searing Flames you don't wanna take anyway because you loose 1 cry every 12 sec and 1 cry>4 SF.

I think introducing PvE skills was a great idea, it was just horribly executed. While the Sunspear/Kurzick skills at least somewhat made sense, the eotn skills are just randomly distributed power creep. Only few offer interesting new build choices and none of them fixes any pve issues based on pvp balancing needs.

But now we are really going off topic, so back to my question considering this patch, why the hell is ursan blessing still not fixed?? Look at most of the elite pve areas in this game, all you see there are lots of UB groups forming with maybe 1 or two guys who just can't take the boredom anymore desperately trying to find a balanced group. If in pvp 95% of all front and midline builds would consist of ONE skill, it would not take you months to at least do a hotfix. You do realize that even though this game has a large pvp part and even though pvp balancing is more critical, pve still needs balancing? And you know that most of your playerbase actually plays pve? Well if you think you can attract pve players with giving out free candy then i can tell you sooner or later this will backfire. Sooner or later people will realize that all those nice elite items they now get so easy are nothing worth anymore (and titles neither btw, vanquishing with ursan?). And when the grind is away, all that is left is playing the game for fun. Problem is, with only one skill left in game it is not really fun to play anymore either.

I could understand if you actively would try to destroy the game when gw2 would already be out so you could switch those servers to your new cash cow. But that is quite a long way to go yet. And killing the game now isn't really the best advertisement for gw2. So it is really a mystery to me what cunning plan lies behind this. Whatever it is, i fail to see it. Beetlejuice 11:12, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Guild vs. Guild

[edit] Victory or Death

reduced damage increased to 10%; this skill now reduces healing by 10%.

[edit] Victory is Ours

both teams now get this bonus at Victory or Death, regardless of how many NPCs either team has; increased damage to 20%.

What's the point of having VoD & ViO seperate now, if both teams will get both bonuses regardless? Why not just combine the damage bonii and just have VoD? — ( ɔ \ ʇ ) uɐɥʇıǝɹ 20:23, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I believe ViO doesnt affect NPC's whereas VoD does, thats all that seperates them IIRC Fowlero 20:39, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

this is how this should work it should give the boost to whom ever has the highest % of npcs dead and should include how much Dp each team has.75.165.122.205 21:09, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

My game: you broke it --66.245.94.198 22:09, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

And I thought you made it to encourage splits and ganks on npcs before VoD. Guess I was wrong, sorry. 74.229.66.241 22:21, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree here. If the original intent was to encourage splits and ganks, then in it's current implementation, ViO is serving no purpose outside of the fact that it speeds things up at the end. PlacidBlueAlien 05:38, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

It was necessary because Sinsplit was dominating MaTs in a terrible way and I think Izzy decided to change ViO instead of shadow stepping which created most of problems with splits... :/ A. von Rin 00:22, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Wtf are u talking about?? I bet u dont even GvG cause i didnt understand any of what you just wrote User 24.141.45.72 18:31, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Poor boy, if you don't understand that shadow stepping is a bad mechanic in split meta... Weaken ViO makes split builds less powerfull and this also helps against Sinsplit. But I think spltting is a nice tactic and I would have prefered to see shadow step mechanics changed instead of ViO. Hope you now understand what I wanted to say. Btw: Yes I don't play GvG, only Polymock (this one is balanced)... ;o) A. von Rin 19:06, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Yea but many times it didnt last til VoD because the split did enough damage and the main team stalled enough so that either they got the guild lord first or the other team fell back the main team pushed forward then it was a base fight where they could continue to pick off npcs and then finish the team that way too at times. And he nerfed some of the builds its not that bad, hell we beat a sinsplit the day of the nerf ironically enough just before this update. If you dont wanna deal with splits or strategy go to HA please >.< because if I'm tired of fighting Sway and Bspike several times a day. Sinsplit was a well known build but it wasnt really used by everyone or "dominating" like you say it is. 74.229.66.241 17:00, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Go buy a dictionary! Then read again what I wrote and you might understand that I liked how ViO promoted Split-Builds and that I don't like the change... -.- Sinplits won the last 3-4 MaTs (if I remember it correctly) and it was OP because you don't have to be good at positioning using shadowsteps for having a movement advantage. I only commented that (imho) it would have been better to change shadowstepping (shorter range for example) than changing ViO!!! A. von Rin 17:03, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you that ViO shouldnt of been changed I just feel that sinsplit isnt as good as you make it out to be and it has and can lose. I'm seeing so much more Sway and Bspike and other HA gimmicks the more and more splitting seems to be discouraged it seems. I dont have a problem with shadow stepping due to its recharge and the fact it takes up an entire skill slot, I think they just need to redo the fact you can instantly access some npcs and bases that would otherwise be harder to get to. Yet limiting the range might get in the way of me using stuff like return in TA and HA because stupid stuff is in the way. So maybe just add an exception to gvgs to something like erm..within your aggro bubble there must be a way to get around to where you want or else you cant shadow step or something, I dunno just throwing out ideas. 74.229.66.241 19:34, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Bloodspike was in play during the VoD/ViO changes since splits do little to encourage or discourage their usage in my opinion. Those type of teams either try to spike the other team to death or /resign (whichever comes first) or beeline for the guild lord and more or less trade bases with maybe a necro healer or two staying back. PlacidBlueAlien 04:50, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Assassin

[edit] General Comment On Assassins.

You do realize Izzy that you are pushing for more and more passive defense, which I know you hate? I personally don't play assassins due to preference, but the more pressure you remove from the game, the more passive defenses can be used. There is less need to see someone targeted by something and use the right skill. Instead, Monks can almost not just cast guardian on themselves and ZB everyone else. I always figured the easy ability to spike assassins down was their bad side, considering if they add a couple defensive skills, they have most likely, a less powerful build in most cases. I'm all for not getting owned every time I see an assassin in AB or RA, but lets not forget the assassins job, which is to ASSASSINATE. For someone not liking passive defense, your making it really easier to do. 75.183.125.212 13:13, 9 March 2008 (UTC) *edit* While I said I don't play assassin due to preference, I meant It's not my main pvp class. I bring it out everynow and then. 75.183.125.212 13:18, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Omg, have you read all update notes? o_O Guardian was not only nerfed it is just bad against normal Assassins using anti block skills. And you forget completely about the hard nerfs against passive defense in this update (WaM, "Shields Up!", WY). What you write is wrong, but I also think that some nerfs on Sins here have gone too far this time! A. von Rin 15:52, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Guardians nerf is a joke. Its still easily used. Not all assassins used unblockable chains, and just one of their attacks that missed would screw up their hole chain. Most of the unblockable chains don't have the attack power other ones do which means your safe, unless your a rit using spirits strength to boost attacks a LOT. WY and Shields up wont change much. Ward against melee Is troublesome but mesmer warders can just now arcane echo it (yes there are mesmer warders which ARE effective). Nothing changed except assassins. I'm not wrong, your just not thinking. 75.183.125.212 19:34, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Uh, what? Guardian's nerf wasn't really a joke at all. Yes, it's still usable and still a "good" skill. Anyway, it's the assassin class that has issues - it can't pressure (outside of perhaps moebius) so guardian's increased recharge really does nothing for the class since instagib sins have always one trick ponies. They either succeed or they didn't. The changes have progressively made 1-2-3-4-5 harder which I would state that most people say this is good for the game. The problematic part is changing the sin class to do things other than pressing 1-2-3-4-5 to kill stuff because the class was built against attack chains. Also... arcane echo ward against melee? What? Who does that? Chaining 10e mesmer skills is bad enough even with help from the inspiration line and now you want to add 15e skills to the mix? At least use glyph of renewal (shame/diversion hex spam!) and auspicious or something (which no one does either.) PlacidBlueAlien 23:22, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I played a mesmer in GvG a lot, and I usually like to play shame/ward build. I never had energy problems, and adding arcane echo won't change anything. Mesmers are just fine with energy, I've never had problems with mine. 75.183.125.212 00:50, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

People complain about the 1-2-3-4-5 of assassins, so Izzy nerfs the attacks. Then Izzy nerfs the non 1-2-3-4-5 skills. At least Assassins can still effectively use Resurrection Signet, for now anyways. --Deathwing 00:55, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that the non-chain skills get abused by other builds such as siphon speed. The problem wasn't just delegated to assassins since the cost etc. made it a snare for all melee to consider if necessary. Assassins just need major reworking since nearly every sin build created has been 1-2-3-4-5. Deadly arts spiker builds (nearly all variants), SP sins, etc. have the same common theme. @75.183 IP: Adding a response under Ward against Melee since it's getting off-topic. PlacidBlueAlien 05:03, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Nerf ward, nerf defensive shouts, stall guardian spamming so you can change targets, erm right hes promoting blockway youre so right. Seriously though it looks like more and more pressure builds are showing up and I've seen 3 frontline teams completely roll some high ranked guilds. Bsurge/BV is all we have left it seems xD On the mesmer note I cant find enough slots on my mesmer to fit skill I want but to echo ward and such? And you have no energy problems? Meaning either you dont do much half the time or the enemy monks are bad and constantly cast through shame and whatnot. At least when the going gets tough I'd think youd do enough to run remotely low on energy but I guess not... 74.229.66.241 17:06, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not gonna give out my build/weapon set cuz I don't wanna be a wiki build, but lets just say I do my job, and I do it perfectly. It's all about timing, not constant spam spam spam GET HIM SPAM, and thats where a lot of mesmers go wrong. But my original FACT remains, he is making less pressure, so less of a need to be tactical in defenses. I wouldn't be surprised if a WoH spammer can keep a team alive now all by his lonesome. 75.183.125.212 20:19, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

This is beyond me so let me try and comprehend this, so by nerfing wards shouts limiting the range of aegis reducing the duration of blind by a second he is indeed....making less pressure? The teams with like 3 warriors or multiple machineguns/dps spammers/Pshot rangers/whatever you wanna call them and P/me pressure and support that I watched roll in minutes on observer mode at times just came up against bad monks because theres no pressure on them anymore is that what youre getting at? Maybe its because you dont constantly give them a diversion to deal with or a shame or blackout on a monk while your frontline beats on them because youre too busy "timing it perfectly" thats not causing any pressure. I just think IMO monks have way more pressure now than they use to when blockway seemed to come out. And the apparent small buff to hammer warriors and mesmer was just to you know...lessen pressure..I get it now thanks. 74.229.66.241 20:16, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not gonna sit back here and describe exactly how laughable most of those 'nerfs/buffs' are because honestly, its not worth my time. Feel free to feel superior for a while until you realize whats the game is really like 75.183.125.212 23:39, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

You say you do your job but you don't want your build to become a wiki build. Thus, I will assume that the matches you participate in aren't on observer mode and yet you scoff at someone trying to hold up any form of discussion while acting like an expert on such matters. That's fine, after all, you really might be an awesome expert pro player and the next MVP in GW but there's no need to start stroking the e-peen here. This -is- a discussion page about nerfs and buffs and if you aren't going to describe how you feel that each one is exactly laughable because it's not worth your time, then stop trolling and visiting these pages. PlacidBlueAlien 05:07, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Augury of Death

• increased recharge to 20 seconds.

fair enough --Life Infusion «T» 22:26, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I like this one. Lots of /A were carrying this left and right in the arenas for spiking. --Shadetz X 03:35, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Not bad, the increased recharge isn't too bad and doesn't reduce the effectiveness of this skill. Though it does reduce the spamming of it in certain venues. GhostBear 05:12, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Ew. I loved this skill. MiraLantis 08:17, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Yayyy finally listened xD <3 74.229.66.241 15:44, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Excellent! This skill will see about one or two times in any particular mini-skirmish before the sin must retreat to heal up. Thanks for that. --People of Antioch talk 06:53, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

This was a good nerf, Not destroying the skill, but makeing it less spammable. My only concern is that soon assassins will have no spammable hexes 0.o Kraken 05:44, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dark Prison

decreased duration to 1..6 seconds.

Meh. Shadow Prison and Dark Prison are practically the same skill now. And with all the other past nerfs to Assassins Dark Prison is probably better to take in some ways. GhostBear 05:22, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Why... just why. Of the two, this one was balanced; give Shadow Prison 50% and be done with it. -- Armond Warblade 07:55, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Makes the skill only worse, assassins used KD-chains regardless of the duration of the snare anyways. Just too much hate for this skill, I wonder who still thinks this skill is a imbalanced or a problem at all. --Longasc 10:18, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

This skill got nerfed because it was so imba. --Lou-Saydus 17:16, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Why would ANYONE call this skill imba. Everyone agrees it was fine there was no real reason to nerf it. Prokiller88 23:36, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Read his other comments, sarcasm to the point of cynicism. --Longasc 13:30, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Shadow Prison

decreased duration to 1..7 seconds.

Any way to reduce the recharge now? Prokiller88 22:04, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

still spikey. You only need 4-5 seconds to spike without an IAS. --Life Infusion «T» 22:27, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Nerfed enough to get an energy decrease to 5. And @ Life: This shouldn't be about deleting, but balancing. The snare was nerfed which is good, the recharge was already nerfed which is also good. But energy is now too high for the effect on an elite - which isn't good... A. von Rin 00:44, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

-66% is more than cripple's -50% , and hex removal isn't usually quick enough to take it off in a spike. It is an insane amount of bar compression. Best snare % (outside of Mind Freeze or Icy Shackles/Iron Mist/Binding Chains) + shadow step + free hex for things like Black mantis thrust to trigger trampling ox and jungle strike. --Life Infusion «T» 01:47, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Compare! SP: + = shadow step / - = cost, recharge and duration... A. von Rin 01:56, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

not having to be forced to go /E and invest in water is a plus.--Life Infusion «T» 03:55, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Bar compression is also an issue to consider. The snare reduction may not have been all that helpful since since sins these days are drunk on KD chains. I wouldn't mind if the energy cost was reduced however. PlacidBlueAlien 05:45, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

izzy just save some damn time and make this skill cost 100 energy and have 500 recharge, everyone knows you want to do it. *waits a month before this gets another nerf*76.26.189.65 06:22, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I wonder about all the hate. Why not just take the non-elite Dark Prison by now, the skills are similar enough. Gives Assassins the option to use another elite. Next step: Remove Shadow Prison, Dark Prison and Siphon Speed? Not enough, nerf knockdowns, too? Just because of some Sinsplits in GvG? I did not see Shadow Prison cause any problems in RA, TA, AB and not even in GvG. A simple Guardian or any kind of block/evasion still screws Sins up thoroughly. --Longasc 10:24, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

You forgot they nerfed Guardian. :P — ( ɔ \ ʇ ) uɐɥʇıǝɹ 15:48, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Good luck trying to use 1 second Guardian against an assassin. --Life Infusion «T» 03:25, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Your team mates could help, after all. Even in AB, the only time I die to a SP sin as a monk is when I am already around <50% health. And in GvG this skill is not really a problem, or is it? --Longasc 08:04, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

SoD/SoA will kill the damage. Prokiller88 06:17, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

SoD is another ballpark (not a just problem for sins and from what I can remember, there was plenty of talk against SoD and a push to nerf it somehow but it hasn't really been addressed and it's rather divisive) and I'm not sure why you are letting a 1s cast from guardian or SoA go through as a SP sin (no KDs?). I'm not even sure what your comment was alluding to. It's like saying, "Restore conditions will get rid of conditions," or "WoH makes red bars go up." Er, ok. You might disagree that SP needed yet another nerf (though honestly, this nerf really didn't do much) but listing counters doesn't change the fact that a skill or a combination of skills might be overpowered. For example, you can list block stances as counters to those Grenth's aura Balth dervs but it doesn't change the fact that they were generally considered overpowered. PlacidBlueAlien 05:48, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Shroud of Silence

decreased duration to 1..3 seconds.

Wow another sin elite left hanging by a hair. Why do I see skills like this and SP nerfed so much? Maybe its not a snare or hex as much as it is the chain used with it? As though I didnt preveil easily against this before now I dont have to bother because in all honesty I dont think anything will get done in like 2 seconds. Sp I didnt even see much anymore as it is yet it gets nerfed every update it seems xD gg. 74.229.66.241 21:39, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

They could've just deleted this skill. Same difference =/ 201.174.197.61 21:42, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

R.I.P. Invincible Rogue 22:22, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Still has uses. — ( ɔ \ ʇ ) uɐɥʇıǝɹ 22:40, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

could have reworked to work like Shame/Guilt instead. --Life Infusion «T» 22:54, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Awfull change without being a Sin-Fanboy -.- With this short duration decrease energy to 5 and recharge to 20. A. von Rin 00:24, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Another example of Izzy hitting something too hard. If it tastes good, spit it out. TristanDark84 01:54, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Blackout is now in every way better than this. longer disable, shorter disable on you, more spammable, same range.... R.I.P. 74.142.187.245 02:19, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

This is an unnecessary nerf, 3 seconds is way too short and a waste of elite slot. it can easily be countered with 2nd hex removal or holy veil. BMShen 7 March 2008 (UTC)

This is my biggest disappointment of this update. Especially when I can't see a single reason they would consider this necessary. Blackout, a non elite does more, takes less and is in every way more powerful and longer lasting. A buff to at least one lame duck Assassin skill this update would have been nice. GhostBear 06:02, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

There's nothing fun about this skill. I don't see what it would add by still being usable. Pluto 06:10, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

It used to be usable and somewhat competitive. I don't get why a skill that hurts casters only is so bad. This is like Daze versus Blind, Daze is treated like it's so much better when it's less of a shutdown of a caster then blind is to a martial character. This skill isn't overpowered and never was, now it's unusable in any situation. GhostBear 08:24, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

It required high deadly arts, it was 9 seconds at 12 Deadly Arts. Now it is 3 seconds at 12, and 1-2 seconds below. Because we all coordinate perfect spikes or what. Maybe it required a nerf, but not that hard. There are nice numbers between 3 and 9 seconds, how about 6... and then only deadly arts specialized sins would have 6, all others with lower DA only 2-3. --Longasc 10:31, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. This skill was viable before, but now it's just a piece of crap. As everyone has already stated: this skill could've been good of with being nerfed; not destroyed. Add a few secs. and it should be back to being useful again.--ILLUSiVE 11:28, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

this was the worst shit u could get thrown at u in ta, followed up by a shadowstep and u got an assassin using his attackchain all over u, killing u under 10 seconds if u were already low on health without u being able to heal/cast spells, 3-4 seconds is ok but izzy forgot to reduce the recharge and energy cost. --Cursed Angel 15:38, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

While 1-2-3-4-5 lolsins may be the only sins that are worth playing in PvP, they aren't good for the meta. This skill was overpowered but 20r/25r is worth considering at the current energy cost. Apparently, some people here fail to realize that people used two sins regardless, one SP and one SoS, so a 6 second duration wouldn't have changed a thing to stop the instagibbing among some of the other comparisons and suggestions that aren't even worth commenting on. PlacidBlueAlien 17:11, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

This sucks. What'd sins ever do to you? Tip the scales away from 'em, eh? What I don't understand is that with this, sins are forced into a corner. Most of the good elites have been taken away.

Maybe I'll just use Moebius Strike.

The problem, Izzy, is that this skill as-is is pretty much unusable. It wasn't overpowered to begin with, nor was I seeing it in widespread use in PvP. So why kill it? MiraLantis 19:15, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand why this skill was nerfed because Wail of Doom is better in every way. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:216.218.214.2 (talk). (Please sign your comments thanks MiraLantis 20:02, 7 March 2008 (UTC))

Assassins get more uptime from their elite if they use Wail of Doom as opposed to this...lol. --Deathwing 21:29, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Lol. Good one. MiraLantis 21:30, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Sins existed. That's what's wrong with them. Solo killers have absolutely no place in a team-based game, and characters that can easily teleport all over the map have no place in a game where all the damage comes from melee. -- Armond Warblade 21:31, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I think Izzy hates assassins, he must get wasted by them all the time, because as it is this skill is more of a liability than anything else. As far as this skill goes I deem it once and for all DEAD. I would not take a normal skill that shuts down enemy spells for only 3 seconds even if: It Cost 0 energy, Had no "disables your spells for 15 seconds" clause, and had a recharge of anything higher than 10. I would rather take something that just KDs my opponent and stops all of their actions for 2 second and not sweat the extra 1 sec, then not worry about spell denial on self or a 10 energy cost or a 30 second recharge or my enemy kitting or using my elite slot or any of the other lame assassin nerfs that Izzy throws at us. Really pretty soon assassins will disappear from the game altogether because they will be totally useless. Thx Izzy. And contrary to common prejudices assassins are balanced, just differently from other professions, other would be like speccing to 9 in all attributes while an assassin would be like specing to 12 in 2 attributes. Now however with all the assassin nerfs demanded by people who dont want to change their pvx wiki builds to counter assassin combos the assassin are haveing their 12 rank of attacking pulled down to 6 and not having their 6 or so ing defence raised at all leaving them next to useless. Thx again Izzy for the "Balance" you give to this game. *Great moutainous heaps of Sarcasm* Kraken 22:02, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

As much as I have no idea what you just said, I have to agree. I'm not mad that SoS was nerfed, personally. I don't use it. However I'm mad that Assassins have been targetted so. Uncool dude. Yes, we do LOTS of damage. But we also go down FAST. MiraLantis 22:05, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Sigh. Sins being balanced differently makes them broken. It's like weapon spells. You might notice, by the way, that a lot of the people asking for assassin nerfs are in the top 100... Also, no one runs 12 12 3 or 9 9 9 9, everyone runs 12 10 8, 11 10 10, 11 11 6, or something like that, don't know what you're talking about.

Good sins don't die fast. Good sins shadow step out of the way and laugh at you when you try to kill them. -- Armond Warblade 22:07, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

If sins were broken, Armond, then why do they work? That's silly... You sure do like to disagree for disagreement's sake. MiraLantis 22:13, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

@ Armond: My biggest problem with this update is that the problem with Sinsplit was only balanced a bit through ViO / VoD change. The nerfs weren't on the right place cause shadow stepping is the real problem, not those skills that were nerfed (some are nerfed for months now and things haven'T changed). A. von Rin 22:33, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

MiraLantis: lern2slang. "Broken" means that they break the game, not that they're worthless. Next time make sure you know what the hell you're talking about before posting. --24.9.234.253 01:34, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

The Point I was trying to make was that, assassins do not have strong defence to begin with, and a couple of months ago assassin damage was taken away, now assassins are haveing all of their utility taken away. If assassin are balanced like everyone else then they would just be warriors with a different model. assassins are balaced because althought their skill have higher damage and comboing ability they have much less defence and cant just sit on a taget with thier auto attack to deal damage. the balancing weakness to assassins strengths lies in the very way the entire class is set up, not in the skill numbers. now the stengths are being destroyed while all the weaknesses are left untouched leaving assassins much weaker than any other class. all in all assassins are becoming the equivallent of warriors fighting naked. average damage, but no armor or anything else to fight with. Kraken 22:35, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Anon IP 24.9.234.253 - As a general guideline, please make your comments at the end of the section, and not in the middle. This is so that discussion can flow easily and things don't get lost. Also, you may want to check out our policies about posting. And lastly, you're saying that sins are a bug? That doesn't make sense.MiraLantis 01:48, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Every class after Prophecies is like a bug for the balance of GvG and very hard to work with for Izzy tbh. The concepts were nice, but their impact was bad and now there is a lot to balance to restore the game into a fairer PvP environment... A. von Rin 03:37, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

A very wise statement, A. von Rin. That makes sense. To an ESL user, that's a big deal. I enjoy your input wherever I see it, thanks for the clarification :P MiraLantis 05:48, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

(reset indent) Basically it was a super daze before (seeing how only non-spell hex removal worked) in exchange for 10 energy and disabling all your spells (presumably your Disrupting dagger and dancing daggers). Now it is a laughable elite considering 3 seconds or so isn't a very long time. The 10 energy is a limiting factor that means at best you can get off a lead and offhand, maybe more if you bring "Lotus" skills. I think changing it to daze with about 6 seconds duration at high Deadly arts and around 20 recharge would have been a better option. It doesn't teleport, it just shuts down. --Life Infusion «T» 18:46, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Id be ok with it if it was 15 sec recharge with no spell disabling for you, or a least decrese spell disable to 10..8..7 that would fix all of it, now my anti caster build is dead, why do u just make it so that assasins have tow abilities, Die, Shadow step, stop nerfing the most powerful single target elimination skills, the shadow steps are gettign nerfed too, dont make em warriors with +4 regen and -10 amour.(next nerf is gonne be to attk skills they will all be +1..3..3 dmg and all of them will disable all of your spells for 15 sec. Annoying And Deadly 22:26, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

3 seconds is shabby, non-elite knockdowns cause 2-3 seconds where people cannot cast and in addition to that not run away. What's next? Remove all knockdowns? --Longasc 15:21, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

so i herd pre-veil > SoS ... why nerf SoS? only baed monks fail aginst SoS and SP sins User 24.141.45.72 18:34, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

See how it was used/read the comments above and then think about it. I doubt anyone can convince you of the opposing side if the above didn't give you any indication of why it was nerfed. Thus, any further disagreement that people would have about this will devolve into a discussion involving build wars (starting with holy veil it seems.) Sure, I agree that holy veil is a great preprot against hexes for monks but holy veil wouldn't and didn't address the problem. Rit runners didn't even have access to veil and the flag runners are supposed to be one of the primary handlers of the splits. So I guess only monk runners may apply. PlacidBlueAlien 05:32, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

My biggest problem with this nerf is that it completely annihilates the usefulness of the skill AND leaves the downside which was originally scaled for a longer duration. Losing all your spells for 15 seconds so you can stop your opponent from casting spells for 3 seconds is like killing yourself to cause 96 damage to someone. Since this hex doesn't even disable your opponents spells it just prevents them from being cast. If it's removed or prevented in the first place, say by Hex Breaker, then it STILL disables your spells for a full 15 seconds and your target can cast as normal. With a 30 second recharge still there, this ELITE is not even worth a bad regular skill. GhostBear 23:15, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Siphon Speed

increased recharge to 30 seconds; decreased duration to 5..15 seconds; this skill now recharges 50% faster if cast on a moving foe.

Bah, our cover hex is no more. I don't see this being useful in its current form. Perhaps it will be in PvP, 'cause no one plays PvE anymore, amirite Anet staff? :\ 201.174.197.61 21:44, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

It's already in PvP (thats why it was nerfed!). This change is ok, but decrease the cast time to 0.75. A. von Rin 00:26, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

And who would bring it in PvP in its current state? The skill has not been nerfed, it has been killed. 10-15 seconds recharge would have been fair. 30 seconds and conditional 15 seconds just sucks. It was sometimes needed as trigger hex, Sins got shafted a lot in this update. --Longasc 02:09, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree that 30 seconds recharge is an overkill for this skill. I would rather see recharge at around 12 seconds. --Shadetz X 03:37, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

30 sec. is a MAJOR overkill. I would personally prefer something like 10-15 on this.. maybe 15-20 if it keeps it's "spell recharges 50% if cast on a moving foe"-effect, but then it should also have it's casting time reduced to .75 as well.--ILLUSiVE 11:31, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Explain to me why this deserved anything less when comparable skills were elite. -- Armond Warblade 21:34, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

not saying that the recharge was unfair, but those elites you mention have 66% snare, which is much more than 33%. It's more of the fact that it is 66% relative speed to your target that is why it is imbalanced. those elites give -66% absolute/base speed.--Life Infusion «T» 03:28, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

15-20 recharge would have been more fair upon thinking about it a bit more. --Life Infusion «T» 18:47, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

The reasons this was overpowered was because it was spamable, so the sin could have a constant 33% speed boost in battle and the easy ability to snare people, and even if it was removed, it didn't matter. 3..2 seconds later it was back up. So if he fixed the spamablity or made the effect harder/less it would balanced this. 10 recharge is a must, lower duration to 1..15 is too. Then make the 33% faster boost conditional (if they are moving) or lower the effect to 25% faster and slower (Think of it like crippling them instead of freezing gusting them).--The Gates Assassin 09:46, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dervish

Glad to see Dervs getting a bit less obnoxious, even if it's only a bit.--Glenforder 22:06, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Grenth's Aura

decreased duration to 10 seconds; increased recharge time to 25 seconds; increased Energy cost to 15; increased casting time to 2 seconds.

Deleting skills is funny, isn't it? Take this one, its just the better option for the same issue: Enchantment Spell. All adjacent foes are struck for 20...70...80 cold damage. For 20 seconds, this Enchantment does nothing. When this Enchantment ends, one foe in the area loses 1...2...2 Enchantments." Set the rest back to its old stats with this change in the mechanism and Derv-Spike remains dead without totally killing this skill! A. von Rin 00:19, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

100% Switching to grenth's fingers and AoG Prokiller88 01:39, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

YOu can still use intimidating aura.--The Gates Assassin 07:47, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Gates your comment ( Prokiller's one, too) has nothing to do with what's wrong with this change... >.< A. von Rin 20:04, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh you mean the clear over kill? yea, I saw it but complaining would be useless. Prokiller88 04:41, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I would have much preferred something like cold damage, poison, disease or something Grenth related rather than making it extremely unwieldy. --Life Infusion «T» 18:49, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I think in this case Izzy didn't know how to balance it and had to kill it quickly to destroy the Dspike synergy. That's ok for a fast shot on the skill, but can't be it's final state! My suggestion for an unpredictable ench. remove or Life's idea to change it's functionality and go with poison, etc. is far better than this crap version of a skill formerly known as Grenth's Aura... :( A. von Rin 01:39, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

a bit balanced when compared to chilblains and other forms of enchant removal 76.26.189.65 06:37, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mystic Regeneration

decreased duration to 5..20 seconds; increased recharge time to 12 seconds.

Decrease energy cost to 5, otherwise this is terrible for Derv. It's ok if you don't want selheal on Eles (I suppose), but why killing it for the primary class? You could also just move it to Mysticism with its old duration... Recharge is ok. A. von Rin 00:16, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

the root of the problem (1/4 cast) was not fixed. 12 recharge is moderate but the duration scale killed it more or less since it is now a conditional fast cast healing breeze. --Life Infusion «T» 01:49, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Make max duration = recharge IMO --Srakin 06:37, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

→ moved from User talk:Isaiah Cartwright

Why? What was the point of changing mystic regen in such a dramatic way, the earlier nerf was good for the people using it to out-do degen in pvp and was still enough in pve to farm. But now? what is this, some kind of gold sink to stop farming? --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:65.34.193.183 (talk).

...What? How does this affect farming? Any serious farming was killed by the previous nerf, and it's still maintainable at 8 earth prayers (the breakpoint for +3) even if you did still want to use it. -- Armond Warblade 07:30, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

This should probably be moved under the feedback page. PlacidBlueAlien 07:35, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

are players only abble to complain about the lost of their own interests ? it's boring. it's a game, try having fun finding another way to farm, because it seems farm is you'r way having fun. lussh 07:37, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

My guess is that this was one of those "Let's see how the meta is without this skill/build" nerfs. Remember PLeak. I think it's a great idea for them to do temporary changes like that. It gives them a lot more insight into how the meta works. I could be wrong though, maybe Izzy really did think it was overpowered. --TimeToGetIntense 11:44, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Wanna know what would fix this skill? Put it under mysticism then no other class can abuse it and the derv still has it as a viable skill, tbh nerfing it this much is a real problem--Shadowsin 14:47, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

a simple revert to previous state will fix this skill :p --Zealous 18:49, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

(Reset indent) IMHO, this skill, after the last balance, was STILL too powerful. Yes, I play a dervish. Yes, I use him to play, farm, and sometimes, AB and Team. Yes, I use this skill. But compared to other classes, this is really just far too powerful; I am glad to see that it is slowly getting sinked until it is comparable to other non-elite health regenerations. ...My opinion on what to do? Leave it as it is, make it an elite. That should do the trick. MiraLantis 19:19, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Umm if you think Mystic Regen is too powerful, we might as well Nerf every Monk healing skill there is. /checkmate--122.108.8.47 21:00, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

RIP --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:198.53.41.68 (talk). (Please sign comments, thanks. MiraLantis 20:39, 7 March 2008 (UTC))

Hi, Anon IP 122.108.8.47, make sure to leave your comments at the end of a section, not in the middle... makes it easier to read. Thanks. ...And it WAS too powerful. I rather like it now... I mean I hate it for my PvE dervish, but I was starting to dislike him anyways so I guess it's alright. If we nerf every monk skill there is, what's the point of Healing Prayers then? ...I guess the same as Earth Magic eh? Peh. Why don't you go ahead and look at those other great Dervish Skills. Y'ever try Conviction? I rather like it. MiraLantis 21:04, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Umm no thanks Conviction is a Stance and i am already got a stance on my Derv build. If it was changed to a Skill instead maybe i would use it.--122.108.8.47 21:23, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Hey! You could try Healing Breeze!! Didn't that get a slight buff a few updates back? MiraLantis 21:33, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Mira how about those of us that use D/R and already use a stance? Dont bother mentioning Troll Urgent because i dont use Wilderness Survival--220.245.179.132 23:59, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I was just recommending another very nice, comparable skill. Of course you aren't going to get the same skill twice... well I mean, you will (Karei's Healing Circle and Heal Area come to mind). The healing breeze bit - and indeed, if you want me to say it, the Ungent bit as well - was merely a joke. Besides, the long cast time on Ungent puts you at a SIGNIFICANT disadvantage in PvP; personally I believe the skill is PvE-oriented and I don't use it unless I have points in wilderness survival for other skills on my bar. I only PvE with my dervish really, so I can't recommend much. I don't use mystic regen because my stances and defensive tactics bring me to take little in the means of damage - it just wasn't worth the slot, for me. Why not play around with your secondary? You might find other nice things out there. MiraLantis 00:07, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Why should the primary class need the secondary for selfhealing, only because it was OP on E/D? Moving it to Mysticism with it's old stats of the last nerf and the new recharge would make it balanced for Derv. and useless for other classes, what obviously was the reason for this nerf... -.- A. von Rin 00:18, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

A. von Rin... that's a fantastic idea. MiraLantis 00:20, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

yes Rin great idea, this has being suggested before. But Izzy never listens--220.245.179.132 01:27, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I propose this to modify mystic regeneration. Its current state has done next to nothing to stop or even hinder many of the builds that "abused" it. Make it behave something like this. Mystic Regeneration: Enchantment Spell. For 20 seconds you have +1...3...4 health regeneration for each enchantment on you. Maximum of 6 + 1 for every 3 points in mysticism. 10 energy. 12-15 recharge, quarter second or maybe half second cast. This means that secondaries can only get 6 regeneration out of this skill, and that dervish primaries are capped at 10 (12 mysticism) or 11 (at 15 mysticism), and in the unlikely event someone has 18 mysticism, 12 regeneration. The reason I suggest this is because, as previously stated this update has done very little to many of the /D builds. I would appreciate some feedback on this idea. Kelvin Greyheart 21:42, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pious Assault

increased activation time to normal weapon attack activation time.

Well, Could always switch to AoG and grenth's fingers. Prokiller88 22:04, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

and have no deepwound? --Life Infusion «T» 22:55, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Dervs still need a quick attack that removes enchantments Phunky Town 23:18, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wounding Strike

functionality changed to "If this attack hits, target foe suffers from Bleeding for 5..20 seconds. If you are under the effects of an enchantment, target foe also suffers from a Deep Wound for 5..20 seconds."

Finally a buff.. I think.. Prokiller88 21:55, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

because spammable bleeding is really strong, right? --Life Infusion «T» 22:10, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Only when it covers good conditions, like this one does.--74.61.209.219 22:20, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it covers. Look at the order of application. It would only cover if you use Wounding strike again after you just applied the deepwound. --Life Infusion «T» 22:29, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Um why dont u go test it like i did, otherwise I wouldnt say it did if it didnt.--74.61.209.219 22:59, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Just run around an enemy team using this on as many different targets as possible, you'll have the enemy prot swearing in no time. --Ckal Ktak 11:37, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Or their RC tells their WoH to go make a sandwich or something because they won't be needed for a while. --24.9.234.253 11:40, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Rofl.That's true, since there is no +damage. --Life Infusion «T» 03:29, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Its better then before, I think that should be enough. Spamming deep wound and bleed is pro, thats why all the sword wars do it question its will it replace them? Prokiller88 04:43, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

If someone is just going to spam bleeding and deep wound I want them to stay alive for awhile so I'd go with 100AL over 70 :P --74.61.209.219 04:47, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

This skill is about 100% faster with spamming bleed and deep wound then sever and gash, because sever + gash take 6 swings at about 1.33s each but this is 1.75 + some cast time of any random enchant. Only down side is, no damage. Prokiller88 06:25, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

downsides? Not having a robust character, no bull's strike, slow attack speed with scythes,no interrupts/knockdowns, IASes (Heart of Fury, Pious Fury, Whirling Charge) can't be upkept, having to spec into Wind prayers for speed buffs is also a malus, triggering Spirit Bond on criticals is another issue. Using an elite slot is a pretty big minus. BTW 1.33s is for normal sword/axe/dagger (minus double strikes) attack rate. In practice it is more like 1 second per sword/axe/dagger attack if you are using a 25% or 33% IAS. The only benefit to Wounding Strike is not having to build adrenaline , something that can be subsidized with Enraging Charge. Keep in mind for an energy attack you are still limited by energy regen. 5 energy/(4pips*1/3 energy per second)=3.75 seconds. --Life Infusion «T» 15:40, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

You are confusing life.. Still I'm saying its better then before but still will see no use. Prokiller88 16:27, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

This skill is meant to make DW hard to remove and keep off. 3 sec is about right, until you look at RC. --8765 22:42, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Use of this skill necessitates Restore Condition to deal with it, forcing monk bars to bring it. Combine this with signet of humility on RC and there is no way to take off all the deep wounds in time. Note: the current version of the broken build involves 3x Wounding dervs and 2 signet of humil mesmers. Tell me how the hell you're going to remove 3-9 deep wounds covered by bleeding every 3 seconds? Also, the easy application of this deep wound allows a dervish to solo spike a character with three hits (Wounding->Chilling Victory->Mystic Sweep).

Suggestion: possibly limit the damage even more to make it pure condi ala... this skill does only 10..20 damage and [insert rest of the effect here] Samcobra

[edit] Elementalist

[edit] Aftershock

removed the long aftercast.

yay--Life Infusion «T» 22:11, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

wasnt the long aftercast added because of earth ele teams wiping everything in TA? 76.26.189.65 06:24, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

And Ride the Lightning ele teams aren't now? >_< --Srakin 06:34, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

RtL just needs prot spirit or spirt bond, shockwave hits 3x per person, it cuts thru prots... edit added more ... not to mention thier aoe 76.26.189.65 06:36, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

True, but RtL are really hard to pre-prot...I see your point though. Well, if it gets out of hand, I'm sure they'll deal with it. Eventually. --Srakin 16:08, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

why did it take 3 years to remove the long aftercast ?

Lag is my big issue with spells with a range as small as Aftershock's. Nearby range is the minimal requirement for me to use them, if I want to hit something once in a while. Nicky Silverstar 10:12, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Blinding Flash

decreased duration to 3..8 seconds.

not much a change since Blinding surge has almost the same scaling. --Life Infusion «T» 01:51, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Still nice to see this change. Now a single air ele can't (almost) maintain blind on two targets. --Srakin 16:05, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

The change is reflected on the Mind Blast bar. Lightblade 18:56, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Crystal Wave/Teinai's Crystals

removed the long aftercast.

The range is too small for it to be usable. In my experience, a small amount of lag can make the use of this skill impossible. How about making (most of) these kind of spells nearby range instead? I don't mind if the damage is lessened to compensate, it would still make them far more usable. Nicky Silverstar 10:10, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Double Dragon

removed the long aftercast.

Yay.. Well, it at least went from being utterly useless to just being bad. Rejoice. Seriously, down the recharge by those 5 little seconds and MAYBE you'll bump into some new player giving this one a shot. Bring it down by 10secs. and you'll bump into two of them.--ILLUSiVE 11:47, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

It seriously needs 15-20 recharge to become an elite or similare to one. :/ A. von Rin 01:44, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Flame Burst

removed the long aftercast.

ehh... it's not the after cast that makes these skills crap >.>.... bigger aoe, more damage, less energy. Then you still wouldnt see these skills used because no ele in their right mind is going to get into melee range ^^ --Lou-Saydus 17:26, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Apparently, this skill is meta fire ele in Alliance Battles, along with glyph sac met shower, deaths charge and starburstSamcobra 22:06, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Flame Djinn's Haste

decreased duration to 8..14 seconds; increased recharge to 20 seconds; the skill now recharges 50% faster if you damage a foe with it.

yet again don't know when to stop beating a dead horse.75.165.122.205 21:09, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Speaking of dead things, this skill is. — ( ɔ \ ʇ ) uɐɥʇıǝɹ 22:38, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Terrible change! The reduction of running speed was enough for this one. At least the Duration should stay the same, if you think you have to increase recharge... -.- A. von Rin 00:28, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

R.I.P. for this one too....

I believe this change was made in accordance to Ensign's recommendation of reducing the "uptime" of the running skill. The actual speed boost wasn't the problem (should stay at 33%, imo, because of this nerf); but rather it was the ability to maintain it constantly. This change means that flag runners can actually be caught. --Scottie theNerd 02:57, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

And any time Ensign suggests something, Izzy bends over backwards to do it? This one can have a fork stuck in it too. TristanDark84 04:56, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

No, unfortunately, though Ensign's a lot better at balance than you would think. Permanent speed boosts were ruining flaggers; deal with it. This is still good for PvE and it's not breaking PvP. What's to complain about? -- Armond Warblade 07:58, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

It kills several PvE builds, that's what. 201.174.198.141 01:38, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Make it recharge 75% faster and I'll be happy with spamming this, using the speed buuf to keep up with people trying to get away, and spamming Star Burst and Fire Burst and Inferno too. Would be, if nothing else, amusing to watch. --Srakin 06:33, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Not the most aweful of changes. Ran it in AB, still does what it's supposed to do, and it makes you WANT to use it for the AoE now (before It was a near-free speed boost)- Vanguard 15:31, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

It needed a nerf, 21 seconds was unnecessary when it also does a crap load of damage. I found it useful for just dmage, the running and the fact its an enchantment made it an excellent utility skill. Thats good enough for. Barely any harder on e-management, or u fail at GoLE.--Relyk 00:57, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Frozen Burst

removed the long aftercast; increased recharge to 8 seconds.

Nice for Kiting now at least. 198.86.116.254 19:00, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Glyph of Energy

decreased Energy reduction to 10..35; canceled spells now count as a use of the Glyph's effect.

only works on 1 spell, worse then gole by alot.

Because we all know that people like to spam their 35 e skills.--74.61.209.219 23:00, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

it works with nonelementalist 15 energy skills as well, keep that in mind. It is the only way to use Gale/Obsidian Flame relatively often on a non-ele. --Life Infusion «T» 23:14, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Now it is terrible not only for Eles but also for other combinations (small edit: because of my failure -.-). Please change it to 1...2 spells too, so it will be viable for primary class. A. von Rin 00:30, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

AFAIK, glyph of energy was used to primarily combat exhaustion from spells and give a free cast more or less. Mesmers in PvP primarily used GoE for gale which also happens to be 10e. It also helped cover the cost of the ward sometimes as well in the past but the main thing was using it with gale. I'm not seeing where you are having issues unless you played some fast casting earth tank with dragon's stomp in the lower arenas. At most, it can be changed to 15e..35e to cover the cost of ward again. PlacidBlueAlien 07:19, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

they scaled it to 35 so that you can get 25e reduc at 9 energy storage, they did the same thing with focused anger 76.26.189.65 07:29, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Wow, what were you thinking? This does nothing to stop gale mesmers, which was the entire reason this wasn't given 7s recharge, and what's with the huge overkill on the energy save? Make it remove exhaustion if you have 5+ estorage, or give it a fail chance, and be done with it. -- Armond Warblade 08:01, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Might have been for that dragon stomp mesmer...--The Gates Assassin 11:07, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

10...35? There are skills that use 35 energy? News to me... — ( ɔ \ ʇ ) uɐɥʇıǝɹ 15:51, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

wtf lol? xD now we can spam all those 35 energy skills! woot! --Lou-Saydus 17:28, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Armond is right. This doesnt help against gale mesmers and makes the elite worse then before. Making the exhaustion prevention conditional, but decreasing recharge would be better... A. von Rin 17:35, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

turn it back to what it was , at least it had some uses on gale spam mesmers , now it's just an inferior and elite version of glyph of lesser energy 189.70.153.219 20:44, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

used to be used for Deep Freeze on Mesmers also, seeing how the snare is unconditional. --Life Infusion «T» 13:54, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

If it reduces the cost of skills while Quickening Zephyr is added on I guess it makes sense?...fine it doesnt Q.Q 74.229.66.241 17:11, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

omfg its scaled to 35, so you dont need 15 e storage, that way you get 25 discount with only 9 76.26.189.65 23:02, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Glyph of Lesser Energy

canceled spells now count as a use of the Glyph's effect.

this is tho only thing im kinda pissed at, but ill have to run balanced stance anyway User 24.141.45.72 20:31, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

The irony here is it was always like a safety net some monks used to lessen the pressure and it logically only made sense to me because it said cast, not attempted. If I get interrupted putting up aegis or something I dont go on vent saying "I casted it" more so "I tried to cast it....but I got interrupted." In all honesty though it shouldnt change awfully much so lets see how it goes. 74.229.66.241 21:46, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah this is stupid. It was good for the game to let people cancel cast for free, especially since /Elementalist does not offer any defense skills. --TimeToGetIntense 00:36, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

no it wasn't, that was stupid --Cursed Angel 03:03, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

This is a good change. Pluto 06:13, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the only time someone complained about this was when some pissed off ranger in RA went on a rant about how some monk kept making him waist interrupts not too long ago. So I guess they have to make the game idiot proof somehow ^-^ 74.229.66.241 15:25, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Wow, where have you been? --fraught · (talk) 15:29, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Terrible change. In a game so driven by interrupts, the only chance a stand caster has is canceling skills so he doesn't get every ward pleaked. Now that you can't do that, this skill is trash, and interrupts are indirectly placed as the most important thing to have on any team. Good job ANet, I'm glad you like your tiny assortment of viable skills. Call me when I can count the good ones on my fingers, then maybe it'll b