Feedback talk:Game updates/20120105

excitement

YES WOOT HAHAHAHAH! I love this update! I've been waiting for it forever. Eles no longer suck and will no longer be killed in 3 seconds in pvp!Yumiko ^,~ 22:59, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

O.o my ele was never killed in 3 seconds in pvp, and I didnt use any skills that made me more durable then any other eles, Heck, I didnt even run a self heal. Obby Armor is Ugly PERIOD!Why? Ask me on my talk page =Pantil Swift 23:45, 5 January 2012 (UTC)\

Recently in FA its been ele hate. Condition and hex spam on eles. I can't even walk into kurz side of FA without being WTF? BOOM! Now they run from me with a prismatic armor set and master of magic with a excellent skill mixYumiko ^,~ 23:53, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

This is really cool, it mixes things up, good vitality for the game... cause come on we’re all pretty well grinding on our 16th character by now. Good job Anet. I do have one piece of criticism though, you should have done the ranger first!!! Oh and when you do barrage can you increase the cool down cause being able to spam any skill gets tyring. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 122.150.195.40 (talk) at 11:39, 6 January 2012 (UTC).

I dislike this update due to the fact Mist form was reworked. That is all. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sackboy024 (talk) at 17:11, 7 January 2012 (UTC).

Those that don't evolve die off. Sucks to be you being solely dependant on the one elite skill. This update has brought my ele more interesting toys to play with now. Yum yum -Wrei110.175.241.56 07:10, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Nothing in his comment suggested Sackboy was "solely dependent on the one elite skill", rather that he disliked the change to it. Lrn2read. 76.106.241.157 20:20, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

If that were the case then he wouldn't be so damn hung over one measly elite despite overall elite improvements to the update. Lrn2thinkRtrd. -Wrei202.124.74.119 22:31, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Oh, how nice. What's that comment at the end, there? Learn to think, what? You're violating NPA. Not very thoughtful of you. On the other note, your logic is flawed. Again, disliking something doesn't equate to being "so damn hung over" it. Or are you "so damn hung over" my comments, now? Not very thoughtful, indeed. 76.106.241.157 14:05, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

(Reset indent) OK so with the updates, they're never completely to everyone's taste. However, I see an Exhaustion change I've thought they should have added for ages, a Churning Earth change I've thought they should have added for ages, I see a lot of elite skills which weren't used that often getting reworked or slightly buffed (the slightly being important), a bunch of obselete skills like Fireball and Ice Spikes getting a 1.5 second cast (pretty cool, 1.5s cast), things like Invoke Lightning being nerfed slightly, in fact a lot of things I approve of. Maybe some of these things make eles a bit overpowered, but they can be adjusted. Otherwise I'd say it's all pretty good tbh. Widowmaker 18:59, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Stone sheath

Most imba tank skill ever now. D/A with VoS + AoS + Stone Sheat ele = gg --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.147.226.68 (talk).

How are you going to use Stone Sheath on a VoS Derv? It would be pretty cool on, say, a War, though. Widowmaker 19:28, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

See the Anomaly note on Doublecast skill. --Silver Edge 07:06, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Whoa

Man, I have to say, all these updates they've done have been really fantastic! I loved both the Mesmer and the dervish update, and now this Ele update...(I hope ranger is next!) Well done ANET, and it's even a quality update with another game on the way, pft who says you need a subscription to have awesome content/updates added to a game.Habar414 00:06, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I disagree this ele update sucks. They destroyed my air build. And what was the point of adding cracked armor to some skills then lowering the armor of HM bosses so that cracked armor doesn't work on them? Ramei Arashi 23:53, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

doesn't lower armor + cracked armor = faster easier take down ? 2.223.139.47 00:01, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

low enough armor that cracked armor wont work +cracked armor = no change, and all it means is that the 3 skills they added them to are now more versatile. which is a good thing :DHabar414 00:09, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Lowering the armor of HM enemies still leaves it pretty high. I haven't gone in game to do any testing, but I'd be very surprised if they had less than 100 AL. -- Armond Warblade 00:11, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) 5 exhaustion on a couple skills that will probably expire by the time you use it again doesn't a ruin a build. Also, many enemies still have more than 60 armor in HM. And changing your build is a fun thing. Manifold 00:11, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I loved the mesmer update a lot, I still don't use my dervish and I still won't use my elementalist. It was kind of nice work on the skills, but I can't find anything that really impresses me besides some of the earth skills; I would still nuke. Also, not to start any raeging in here, but I don't like the reduced glaive, ancestors and SoS damages. I don't play much anymore, so it doesn't necessarily concern me, but I don't really see DoA over farmed and I would rather see other rit elites useable instead of dimming down SoS. That's just in my opinion, of course. Thanks, ANet though, for updates still. I'm sure I will get something from this. --Saera Serena 66.41.96.3 01:04, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Man, I have to say, all these updates they've done have been really terrible! I hated both the Mesmer and Dervish update, and now this Ele update...(I hope ranger is not touched!) Bad job ANET, stop it, stop it, ok? ok. --Silven 02:45, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Hm Silven, I completely disagree with you (Isnt anything new I guess.) I loved the mesmer and dervish updates, some things werent to my liking, but not much. Ele update wasnt exactly too exciting for me, but I still cant wait for a ranger update. Obby Armor is Ugly PERIOD!Why? Ask me on my talk page =Pantil Swift 03:04, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Well I'm assuming you're talking about PvE, although that went to shit a long time ago, the main impact is imbalance in PvP. Seeing as PvE is already broken, addressing the new issues isn't going to matter because it was never 'fixed' in the first place. --Silven 23:49, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Heh, I see what you did there silven :D Habar414 11:22, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Wow this is really a buf for grenth's Balance in HM NICE:)82.161.39.143 20:55, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

It's really not... -- Kirbman 22:16, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Energy Boon

Brb, gonna go make a team full of ele heroes that can give each other (and me) tank-like health while doing nuker damage. Lysander 23:58, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Sure, if by nuker damage you mean slightly less piss-poor damage than eles have always done in hard mode. -- Armond Warblade 00:11, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

brb, gonna go salvage off anything useful from invoke hero and gear up one that is actually useful like a rojbot with pisspoor aiming --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 90.196.101.235 (talk).

Just a reminder - bonus maximum health comes off the bottom. Enchantment-based extra max health is not the same beast as bonus HP from runes and insignias, since it's prone to being stripped when you're getting spiked down. MA Anathe 07:30, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Edit - Oh, bah, PvE? Why bother when you can throw up party-wide passive defense nets and use your elite for actually shredding and disabling? MA Anathe 07:32, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

bah, PvP? Survivor Insignias are trash, any decent PvPer knows armor insignias are superior. And really it's also true for PvE since people are smartening up causing the Bless Insignia prices to rise but for the uninformed here are the main reasons:

• 1. even 10 extra armor provides around 12.5% damage reduction, which in a ~600 damage spike of which usually at least ~400 is armor-based damage, saving you more often than a measley +30 health.
• 2. reduced damage taken means each point of health you have carries higher value and heals are more efficient for your monks in the long run, increased health will just eventually burden the red bar-ers with more red bar to push.
• 3. armor-ignoring damage like degen is easily mitigated by party heals or Healing Burst/Vigorous Spirit, both popular in RA while +30 health isn't likely to save you from higher armor-ignoring damage anyway.

Shield sets and +armor mod weapons provide even more defense and likely prevents you from reaching the doomed 60AL state even if they crack your armor. Worst case scenario, switch from the Of Defense weapon to an Of Fortitude weapon when you do desperately need an extra 30 health but reserve your insignia slots for armor and of course one stonefist insignia if warrior.

• 4. in pve, in hard mode, shelter and protective spirits are mainstream methods of damage mitigation. Increased armor will allow Shelter to proc less, surviving for longer while having increased health causes these skills to be less effective. Zencow 08:42, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Exhaustion icon

I think anet has changed the exhaustion icon, because now it looks very similar to this , rather than the old one with the tick inside. Because of that i'll just go ahead and be bold and update the img. Feel free to revert if i am doing something wrong --Kyx 00:56, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Wait... Exhaustion had an icon? I thought it simply did a deep wound effect on the energy bar - no icon or anything. Obviously I am missing something here... 01:51, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Whith "exaustion icon" i mean the icon in the description that is right after the number that indicate the exhaustion like those , , not the visual and/or effect on energy bar. --Kyx 02:00, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

When did exhaustion have an icon before this update? In beta? MithTalk 15:57, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Kyx was referring to the icon this wiki was using to represent exhaustion on skill pages and skill tables (the one with the downward arrow). --Silver Edge 21:12, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

I love all the ele haters!Piss poor dmg? Hey warriors go down in 3s with our piss poor dmg - The Wizard --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.16.90.207 (talk) at 03:48, 6 January 2012 (UTC).

About time they changed the Exhaustion. 10-point blocks were needless. Widowmaker 18:50, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Hard Mode now harder for dagger wielders?

Their quote "Reducing the armor of foes and raising their Health helps keep Elementalists relevant while maintaining the overall effectiveness of professions that deal armor ignoring damage." Doesn't make sense to me. If they reduce armor but put another way of survivality on monsters (higher health enough to make them as resistant as when they had high armor), they're mitigating the advantages of armor ignoring damage. Of course I will need to try some HM rounds and experiment the changes on my effectiveness, but currently it seems like it will be worse.

I hope at least you Elementalist players really enjoy this update ¬¬ (and I guess one of my 7 heros will have to learn some elemental magic now). First they made me drop my beloved Scythe and my favourite A/D build, now it seems even Daggers will be less effective too (and my current build also relies on direct damage buffs with I'm the Strongest and Strength of Honor :( ) as dagger direct damage really doesn't make a difference, no matter how low the armor is. Sorry for the little rant, but with so many skill changes for the elementalists, I don't think it was that neccesary to trade monster's armor bonus for health bonus in hard mode. Lokheit 01:01, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

It now takes my dagger builds three seconds instead of two to kill things. A 50% nerf to the best build in the game is unacceptable and I well be canceling my subscription immediately. -- Armond Warblade 01:13, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

The sarcasm was completly unnecessary, I never said anything like that and still love a-net. BTW I just returned from a quick high end HM run. It's much worse than a 50% nerf, specially against bosses. Now it takes a lot more time than before to kill them, or at least I needed a lot more time than before with the same build and the team suffered them for longer time (many of my main heros also have sorts of armor ignoring damage) Lokheit 01:31, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Did you have to strategize what was pulled where by whom, prioritize interrupts, or recover from a wipe? If no, pve is still easy :/ -- Armond Warblade 01:40, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Armond have you played Minister Cho's Explorable area post WoC? Not all of PVE is easy (Usaf1a8xx 01:47, 6 January 2012 (UTC))

"they're mitigating the advantages of armor ignoring damage" So you get the point, but you don't realize that it's the point. They were aiming to making non-armor ignoring damage on par to armor ignoring damage so that the professions (primarily elementalist) which do not have armor ignoring skills can be on par to those that do, so that there isn't (as much of) an imbalance between professions. Konig/talk 01:50, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

HM harder for daggers? Before the update I struggle to pull out even 1 dagger chain before my fact reacting heros spiked the target dead (made things too easy, and no I don't use discordway or any PVX Mc-Builds). I welcome the added challenge where my assasin don't have to weld 2ndry weapons (hammers, axe etc.) just to tone down enough dmg to keep things interesting. -Wrei110.175.241.56 02:31, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

@Konig if that is the point, then why stating the bolded part? Lokheit 03:07, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I second what Wrei said. I had to do HM in proph and factions before I ever had heroes and when I did get EOTN and Nightfall in december 2009 I still herohenched and did not use discord. PVE was damn hard for an ele and a caster team and henchmen. This update doesn't help me PVE-wise as I have nearly 100% (DoA and Sancoth Valley nonwithstanding) of the PVE game completed with 29/30 titles and 50/50 HoM. I am the oldest of old school.Yumiko ^,~ 05:43, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Just did today's Zvanquish (Shenzun Tunnels) with my sin. The afflicted eles were more dangerous, as expected: I actually had to pause before each mob to micro Shelter and Union, instead of just charging in like I would have done previously. Everything still died in seconds. It took a bit more than half an hour, including a lot of backtracking and searching for the last mob, which is basically the same as it would have taken before the update.

And what, exactly, does a "quick high end HM run" refer to? -- Hong 09:46, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

@ Lokheit - use elemental daggers not zealous? File:User Chieftain Alex Chieftain Signature.jpg Chieftain Alex 09:57, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

"@Konig if that is the point, then why stating the bolded part?" Clearly you didn't understand me. Armor ignoring damage is still effective - but it's now on par to non-armor ignoring damage. Effectively (pun not intended), armor ignoring damage remains at the same level of effectiveness, while non-armor ignoring damage becomes more effective. Yes it takes longer to kill with armor ignoring damage, but that doesn't make it uneffective because it's still good damage. Konig/talk 17:39, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Armor ignoring damage unfortunatley it's not the thing that has been nerfed more (but it's enough to kiss goodbye discord necros). It's health degeneration..... now, ANY build or skill that degenerates the enemy now it's MUTILATED and uneffective at the point that is useless in hm. Now i guess that elemental dmg will be the next trend in place of discords, and just forget about any tactic and build (like cry of pain) that rely on degeneration --Kyx 17:56, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

If you were using degen in HM before, you were doing it wrong. -- Hong 03:36, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Arcane echo + cry of pain it's not that bad. Oh, sorry, i mean it wasn't that bad before this update. --Kyx 17:15, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

(Reset indent) @Konig, Eles did and do have armor-ignoring damage spells. Obsidian Flame, Energy Blast, Crystal Wave, Teinai's Crystals. While they aren't many, they are there. Armor-ignoring damage is not supposed to be on par with non-armor-ignoring damage. That's why it exists, at all. If it were supposed to be on par then it may as well not exist, [sarcasm]all damage types should be the same and everyone should have the same armor just to be "on par" with every whiny idiot who doesn't understand the role their character's class/profession/job is supposed to play[/sarcasm]. Anet is breaking the unspoken rules of classed gameplay for their entire audience just to please a percentage. When a company habitually forces the players of its games to change their gameplay, with absolutely no other option short of abandoning the game entirely, it should not come as such a surprise that there will be some discontent. It's like buying a car and the manufacturer periodically hijacking it to modify it however they please, leaving you to search for a note yourself detailing what was changed whether you like it or not. Would you enjoy that? Of course, they have been doing this for years, so everyone should expect this nonsense by now. 76.106.241.157 19:53, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Changing skills around and introducing new mechanics isn't entirely for balance, it's also for fun. I'd have thought that the people still playing would be used to this, and look forward to it. Manifold 20:03, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

The problem lies in that it is forced, not optional. If it were "for fun", it should be optional. Not everyone enjoys random changes to their playing style being forced upon them, provided they wish to continue playing a game they paid for. On the other note, I did mention at the end of the post above yours that Anet has been doing this for years and everyone should expect it by now. While we should expect it, we don't necessarily have to enjoy, support or encourage it. 76.106.241.157 20:31, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Don't let the door hit you on the way out. -- Armond Warblade 21:23, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Just a second... let me check... here it is. One of the game retail boxes. Let's read... yaddayaddayadda... oh, here is is: "The online content may vary". There, you've been warned. Nowadays games may change a lot since release. Things get added, things get changed and PC games do things waaaay more often than console games, and MMO and MMO-like games waaaay more often than other PC games. It's not people trying to annoy you or something. It's just the way it is, and one of the reasons people play those games for so long. MithTalk 22:35, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

"May vary" and "are subject to change" are two different things. Try hard. Again, for those who fail at reading comprehension, the problem lies in the lack of options. Again, same as above, this has been going on for years and everyone should expect it by now. Again, ditto, that doesn't make it any less annoying. Armond, thinking of something intelligent to add would be less embarrassing for your edits than failing at cliche. I realize that raising this argument is like speaking to the deaf and mentally handicapped, as it has been for years, but the fact remains. It's going to be ignored/dismissed and anyone who raises the point is going to be ridiculed by people who either don't know how to read, think the world revolves around them and nobody else could possibly have an opinion/preference of their own or simply aren't intelligent enough to think of anything worthwhile to say about it but still want to try to look cool on the internet. I may as well enjoy myself with the issue when the opportunity arrives. 'Nuff said. 76.106.241.157 20:38, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I never had much fun dealing with the deaf and mentally handicapped, so I generally resort to cliches and one-liners instead of well thought out walls of text that no one reads or cares about anyway. 24.130.140.36 18:20, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Obviously someone reads mine (or at least enough of mine to know how to keep a fail retort somewhat relevant). ;) 76.106.241.157 20:20, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, I've been trying some builds with my Assassin, and one thing is for sure: Now I get to use my Law and Order instead always going around with some life-stealing weapon for a little extra damage. They actually hit harder warriors in HM than they did before. I also like to bring two doublecast Elementalists heroes: a Double Dragon and a Stone Sheath one. Haven't had this much fun with an assassin in ages. Stone Sheath protects my assassin, while Double Dragon makes her dagger atacks deal burning. I still rather have a shadow step that I can use more often, and that can target both friend and foe, though. At first I though heroes didn't use doublecasts if the effect on them won't hit, but they may have changed that server-side, because they have been putting doublecasts on my assassin without the effect on their end ever hitting anything. MithTalk 23:53, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Hrm...

And here I was hoping for a major Paragon update (not just a leadership update that makes them better in RA).--Ipsen 01:03, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Too Much Too Late?

First that's ALOT of changes...gonna take ages to sort thru it all and find out what works good together...and then I gotta mess with redoing my Ele's gear if it's not compatable with the new build I come up with. Being 50/50 and GWAMM, I'm just not sure I feel like investing the trouble to redo my ele unless they become viable in End Game stuff like FOW. (Usaf1a8xx 01:17, 6 January 2012 (UTC))

Its not too late. I am more confident in high end pvp now. Ele has been shit on for far too long.Yumiko ^,~ 05:37, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Eles were already strong in PvP. 68.160.191.49 06:53, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Nope not before this. You go into any pvp and you are killed first by the whole opposing team. It kept most Eles out of pvp unless they enjoy having 10 k deaths or more. No other class is hated more not even mesmerYumiko ^,~ 03:38, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

That was embarrassing to read. Clearly you don't know PvP. 68.160.191.49 07:43, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

My post was in reference to PVE (evident by my reference to End Game = FOW)...all your comments are in reference to PVP. (Usaf1a8xx 22:51, 9 January 2012 (UTC))

DoA DwG nerfed... Let's go Star Burst?

Combine the new starburst with, "They're on Fire" and our friendly DoA farmers now have better energy management and more tanking capacity. Combine with some pyromancer insignias and the Greater Conflag ranger I suggested on PvX frostway talk page and we'll have more armor too! Nerf one farming build, and replace it with something even better... Made this up in like 5 seconds: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/341/newpawnedtemplate1y.png/ Not sure I like the ranger attribute spread, but the concept is there. --Atanna Charta 01:29, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Why not just use Searing Flames? Concept worked well with that in the past. 76.181.167.16 03:49, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

SF is too energy intensive without enchantments (which will get quickly stripped). --Atanna Charta 00:16, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

You kinda kill the ST-ranger without Soul Twisting.. your shelter will be down in 1/8 second so you do need to think that part over. I do like the thought of starbursters =) --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 178.117.33.110 (talk) at 14:19, 8 January 2012 (UTC).

SF E-Management - GoLE, Glowing Gaze, Lightbringer's Signet in between the 2 second cooldown? Just saying. 76.181.167.16 20:45, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Formula for Armor changes?

I've checked a few enemies, but haven't found a conclusive formula (yet). The sum in each armor calculation is (3xlevel) + (profession bonus) + (other bonus). The "other bonus" has been taken from Guild_Wars_Wiki:Projects/Armor_rating - for the first 4 foes, no tested HM value was known, making those tests somewhat useless in retrospect. For some results, only armor ranges can be given due to rounding.

Enemy	Armor before	Armor now	difference
Raptor Nestling (25)	75 + 10 + ?? = ??	70	??
Stone Elemental (23)	69 + 0 + ?? = ??	60	??
Hulking Stone Elemental (22)	66 + 20 + ?? = ??	73-74	??
Minotaur (Shiverpeaks) (24)	72 + 20 + ?? = ??	79-80	??
Doppelganger (30)	90 + 0 - 2 = 88	75-76	-12
Shiro Tagachi (33)	99 + 10 + 0 = 109	102-104	-6
Warden of the Spring (25)	75 + 0 + 0 = 75	60	-15
Fungal Wallow (26)	78 + 0 + 0 = 78	71-72	-6
Vermin (25)	75 + 10 + 0 = 85	70	-15
Lesser Oni (23)	69 + 10 + 0 = 79	70	-9
Shiro'ken Monk (30)	90 + 0 + 0 = 90	84-85	-5

I don't to see a pattern yet. Tub 01:49, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm just speculating here, but I think that enemies with an NM-Level of at least 20 get +3 armor in HM for every level in difference. E.g. Shiro. NM level = 31, HM level = 33 and the difference is 2*3 so 6. For every enemy of 19 (or 20 not so sure) or below in NM, the armor difference is 3*(HM-level - 20). E.g Vermin NM level = 18, HM level = 25 and the difference is 15 so 3*(25-20). Well this seems to work for mostly every of your tested enemies except for Doppelganger. I would have guessed that speciel enemies are adressed differently here but then it would also affect Shiro. So either my assumption is wrong or there are enemies that are special. 91.62.234.37 02:06, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I presume you saw Manifold's preliminary test results here. – Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 02:09, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes I did, but this is mostly based on [1] this and the stuff provided by Tub.91.62.234.37 02:21, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

91's and Tub's findings seem to echo my own, albeit phrased differently. Except for the Doppleganger. Doppy has a very large jump between NM and HM level compared to other creatures (the largest?), so it must be an exception. Manifold 02:36, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Formula for HP changes?

Using a sacrifice skill to bring your health low, then Grenth's Balance on a foe allows one to determine a foe's health. It may be off by one or two due to rounding, but it's useful enough to (hopefully) gain some insight.

Enemy	levels	Health before	Health now	difference
Spectral Vaettir	20 (26)	600	720	+120
Doppelganger	20 (30)	680	880	+200
Skeleton of Dhuum	28 (30)	544	~746	+200

Neither the doppelganger nor UW foes are a good starting point though. Can anyone suggest other foes, where the exact amount of health in HM was known before? Tub 11:50, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Seems like the guy on Guru was right about 20 health difference for each level (under the same rules as armor). [2] these are just Elite areas but I hope it helps. But as I see it Elite areas are a bit different regarding HP if I look at that Skeleton. And Doppy is an outsider again. 84.142.50.145 23:00, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, +20 HP for each level beyond 20 seems right, there's more data by Manifold that agrees. Though foes with health bonuses are still to be tested. Tub 00:06, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

That'll be interesting to remember for UW, that much longer to kill a skele for the armor-ignoring damages --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.146.74.128 (talk) at 08:15, 8 January 2012 (UTC).

Ah, wonderful

This update, in my opinion, is great for me who like to create my own builds (especially creative ones) :D However, I don't like the change on thunderclap, it's too easy to use now :/ The Slayer 02:17, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Agree. I liked Daze on an ele elite. Could have at least kept some of the duration. -Wrei110.175.241.56 02:34, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

{{sic}}

What's typo'd in the Ritualist skills? I guess I need to go to bed. ~FarloTalk 02:30, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Ancestor's Rage and Ancestor's Rage (PvP) has the apostrophe in the incorrect spot (e.g. Ancestors' Rage). Cruel was Daoshen, Destructive was Glaive, and Destructive was Glaive (PvP) use a lowercase "was" when it is capitalized in-game (e.g. Cruel Was Daoshen). --Silver Edge 05:28, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the scrutiny; definitely helps us catch these kind of things next time. Also, there's a discrepancy between these notes and the ones posted on GW.com with Glyph of Energy. I corrected it on the internal copy (that I later posted here) but it didn't get changed in the file that was pushed to GW.com, so the elemental attribute increase is listed as "1...4" there. The correct numbers are "1...2" as currently listed here, but you might want to change it, "sic" it, and put in a new GWW note. Up to you all. ~ Matthew Moore 19:29, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Except...I didn't read that bug properly. Now that I look, it seems the GW.com update notes are correct but it's the Developer Update that has the wrong numbers. So, no change necessary here. :D ~ Matthew Moore 19:45, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I love how

Nobody has realised how fucked up PvP is. --Silven 02:48, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm a pvp'er, mostly, so my first reaction to this was the implications on pvp. Personally, I love the update, but I toooootally agree that this needs a few changes here and there. It's great for Fort Aspenwood, though, absolute ele chaos there.--Gerroh 02:55, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Stone sheath, shockwave, water trident, and energ blast changes are pretty gamebreaking for GvG--97.50.211.202 03:12, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Double Dragon says hi. --Silven 04:04, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I can't wait for shitters in PvX to construct a really gay Ele-Pet build for this shit too, the next upcoming weeks of Guild Wars will surely be full of trolling. I would like to thank Anet for that. 68.160.191.49 06:51, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I like how HA is too dead for starburst :( --The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ox rider (talk) at 09:18, 6 January 2012 (UTC).

you couldnt do it anyway because of the flux 94.168.63.103 09:41, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Looks like it's time to find something new to play...

Kinda getting annoyed with random-as-f___, unnecessary skill changes that suck, so I think I'll just stick with games that don't sabotage themselves on purpose from now on. I wish I could say it was nice knowing you, but you've been pulling this stupid BS for years so no. 76.106.241.157 03:04, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

• And so Guild Wars lost another huge contributor. I think we can all safely say we'll miss you, 76.106.241.157, and please do come back. --Chiaro 04:00, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

There's a reason people don't sign in. Try hard. 76.106.241.157 10:54, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Just came to say farewell, and don't let the door hit you on your way out sir. With love, another IP adress 82.176.8.4 15:26, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

shit! not 76.106.241.157!!!!! you were twice the contributor I'd ever be... :( I will miss you, good sir. 90.198.74.57 21:45, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Good night, sweet prince. 124.189.64.51 04:30, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Why does Anet insist on completely changing skill mechanics?

Mist form was a great skill.... and now it does something completely different? This is just one of many skills that I have used that Anet decided nobody liked... and up and completely changed it. If it is not broken.... don't fix it 76.29.215.49 06:29, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

I always found Mist Form to not be worth bringing.As an elementalist (or any spellcaster), you'll be avoiding melee fighting anyways in most cases, so not entirely helpful there, and as an attacker profession with ele secondary, it's useless 100%. You're correct in that it wasn't broken, but it wasn't helpful either. Konig/talk 06:37, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

The only thing Mist Form was good for was annoying melee players vanquishing the Maguuma Jungle. -- Hong 08:34, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

And a few farming builds. There are some skills that have only niche farming uses. When you see people complaining about them being changed, you know they are just farmers complaining about losing their pet farming build. ANet tolerates farmers, but they do not support them. That means that as long as your build is not too effective you can keep using it, but if you lose it after some change, though luck, because they made the change with people that actually play the game in mind. MithTalk 16:17, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't use PvX. It destroys any feeling of accomplishment after any success, for me. If I'm using a build I didn't put together, myself, it was suggested to me by someone I play with. Even then, though, I don't recall ever not modifying a build that has been suggested to me to suit my playing style. Therefore, I obviously "actually play the game". That being said, if Anet made these changes with actual players in mind, they would be optional. When you force something upon someone, there are so very few circumstances in which it's true that you're doing it with their best interests in mind that it's safe to say that comments like those are BS. 76.106.241.157 20:47, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

"You can't please everybody". Damn right Anet don't do this with with 'people' in mind (I mean after all 'people' include trolls, bot users, leechers, exploiting farmers, gold sellers and all that cesspool 'type'), but whats important is who comes out on top. To bring skill changes that promotes realistic alternatives to the established playstyles really put ME on top with all the new possibilities. To those who whinge at this update, sorry but apparently Anet did not appreciate your 'type' enough to stop making the game better for the rest of us. -Wrei110.175.241.56 11:34, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Lrn2read. Botters, trolls, leechers and exploiters typically use resources like PvX. They're lazy enough to exploit the weaknesses of a game for quick and easy gain, they're lazy enough to find the means to do so just as quickly and easily. Before lumping all unlike-minded people into one "type" just because they disagree with you, try learning what you're talking about beforehand. Realistic changes? It's a fantasy-based role-playing game and none of those skill changes promote realism or practicality (at least no practicality that wasn't already present). Another problem with your logic is you're assuming that anybody with a complaint is incapable of adaptation. Disliking something doesn't mean a person can't adapt to it, they just don't have to like it. Another problem with your logic is you're assuming these changes make the game better. If that's just your opinion, so be it. I and many other "actual players" disagree. If we're placing people into types, though, I could name a few in which you fit but that would break the NPA policy. Let's not continue down that road. 76.106.241.157 20:38, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

^I love it when retorts completely blows up in the posters faces. Oh where to begin...

1) "Realistic changes"...hmmmm. I believe the actual phrase was "realistic alternatives" but its probably beyond a certain poster's comprehension to differentiate. My previous comment which quotes that phrase was directed as the change of elites into 'real' alternatives rather than have skills with negliable variations such that players will always pick the better and ignoring the inferior other/s. Think pre-update starburst and double dragon. Think gale VS pre-update GUST. You'd only have to browse those respective article discussion to catch my drift. Instead you read thing things literally and run off into a tangent of quoting realism in an fantasy game? Lrn2read much?

2) Where in THIS article SECTION has anyone quoted to have 'disagreed' with me? Or can't you tell that the comment was a barb aimed at those general hater types that bash a whole update cause of change to one skill amongst a sea of improvement, betraying their own short-sightedness? You think I didn't miss the daze function on Thunderclap? So wheres MY comment that whole update was complete trash?...oh wait, there was none.

3) Where in blazes have my previous comment ever said those 'unsavoury' types wouild not adapt? Do I ever tell people to leave the game? You think updating elite skills; that were (by the majortiy) agreed to be practically useless/limited; into something viable to the average user is NOT making things better? Well too bad your 'type' aren't as numerous in this regard as you'd think. The change is inevitable, and rather waste time whinging about it, use that extra brain power (however much it strains your limited capacity) to adapt. Or better yet if you got any left over, use it to mock the haters that won't get their wish of a big reset button as the game inevitably improves over time. Lrn2thnkRtrds. -Wrei110.175.241.56 08:19, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Wow, to think you could string together a wall of text larger than mine. Where to begin...

1) I can read just fine, your posts are simply unclear due to some inability to finish a thought. The point is, from the very beginning, these "real" alternatives break what worked before simply because they worked (well enough for people to overuse them). Pot calling the kettle black with the whole running off into a tangent thing. I realize how hard you're trying to look cool on the internet, so I'll help by revealing to you that hypocrisy doesn't help.

2) Disclaimer: I may pull from other arguments someone has edited to make a point regarding their logic and treatment of other editors. Yet more Lrn2read nonsense: I never said you thought the whole update was trash. In fact, you seem to be all over this update like you owe it money.

3) Your entire argument implies this. You're arguing that anyone with a complaint is incapable of using any other skill, as most clearly seen here; "Sucks to be you being solely dependant on the one elite skill". Another thing to point out is that you don't even know who the majority are. Out of our nearly full alliance, there are only roughly eight people who even have an account on the forum. Maybe three have an account on this wiki. Out of a friend's somewhat full alliance, there are absolutely none who have either. Of the numerous guilds I've been in, so few have accounts on this wiki that they're barely worth mentioning and so few have accounts on the forum that they clearly are not part of any "majority". Logically, the same is likely true for a large percentage of guilds and alliances within the game itself. I suppose you mean the majority of people who post on the forums and the suggestions pages of the wiki. Only then would that make sense. If so, they clearly do not represent the majority of the game's actual players. So, it's too bad your "type" aren't as numerous in this regard as you think. The majority of the game's actual players play the game. They may do some research on the wiki, but find out how many people edit this wiki or the forum and then measure that against how many people play the game. It's okay, I'll wait...

That aside, anyone who's been playing the game during the years it's been open knows that change is inevitable and, if your edits didn't hint at such a pitiful degree of failure in reading comprehension, you'd have noticed that I've pointed that out numerous times across different sections on this page. Again, perhaps it'll sink in this time, disliking something does not equate to being incapable of adapting to it. Again, now pay attention to this because it's important, we simply don't have to like it. In much the same way, you whine about my comments because you dislike them. Of course, you're not going to adapt to the fact that yours is not the only opinion in the world. We differ in that regard. I know your opinion, that you think forced changes improve gameplay, and I respect it. I simply disagree with it. Can we wrap this up? I'm getting bored of all this repetition. Now let's wait for you to come back with yet more outrageous insults and miscommunication... 76.106.241.157 15:03, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

No both of you can't read and only read what you want/expect to see, and that being a hostile comment. You can dislike part of the update if you like since everyone has an opinion about it and are free to voice it. People may also react to those opinions be it positive or negative and is to be respected, you 2 are nothing more on the level of disrespectful insulting and badmouthing. And if you want to know wich people this update is aimed at it's not trollers, farmers, SCers, leechers, botters and any other exploiters. The people it is aimed at is those who actually play the game, do quests, missions, complete titles, kill eachother in PvP, etc, it's to those people these skill updates are aimed. If you take your time to read the develepor's page of the update you can read the reasons why these updates happen and are not some some bunch of random unneccecary changes. Before the mesmer update the mesmer had a hard time doing it's intended job properly and was lacking, before the dervish update the dervish was weaker with the scythe than non-dervishes and didn't had a clear role, before the elementalist update the elementalist could not compete in terms of damage with armor-ignoring damage dealers such as the buffed mesmer, escpecially at higher level of PvE, being inferior in raw damage means that it had lost it's purpose since they are designed to be the big scource of damage. All these big updates the live-team has made made these professions work again and do the jobs they are supposed to do. The balance between the professions has not yet have been fully restored because not all professions have been properly updated so atm the updates professions are stronger than those who have not yet been updated. Those who have not yet been updated will be updated to an equal level of power of the already updated professions and you can expect equal changes to them. Mist Form was changed because it was a crap skill, not broken but still complete crap since it was way too limited in it's play even even the job it was good in was completely inferior to other non-elite options when it comes to defense against martial classes. Thunderclap was good at daze but for PvE Technobable is a much better choise and in PvP players could just move out of the area before the daze took effect, it's long recharge with limited damage didn't help either. For the doublecast spells they give the elementalist a form of both offensive and defensive support that is useful on all professions making them much more involved in team play. This update greatly benefitted the elementalist as well as other professions that rely on armor rated damage, to those that do not rely on it are off worse but are now much better balanced to those who deal armor rated damage.

You may like it and you may not like it and all people are free to voice their opinions about their update and comments made about the update. You may quit the game and play a different game if you like or still continue playing even if you don't like it. As long as the opinions of people are respected it's fine, but don't go and insult people since GWwiki isn't the place for it. Discussions ended. Da Mystic Reaper 17:29, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

The rage...it's multiplying... :o 124.189.64.51 12:42, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Dedicated Healers/Prot Another Nail In The Coffin

Overall the update is a nice one for Ele's while not OP'ing to an extent we will see massive nerfs in the next 3 months(outside of PvP whining anyways). Good job ANet.

Master of Magic is an especially nice change, and I have to think ANet is again attempting to move us more to a GW2 style of play where dedicated heal/prot team members will not exist. Now the Ele can carry high energy storage, use any magic it wants, has no energy maintenance issues, and can have a few skill slots available for providing healing/prot/resto skills with 12 attribute points. The concept of we all heal/prot every other team member gets a little closer. Probably only going to happen in hero based teams ATM, but it is another step towards the future. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 98.82.166.24 (talk) at 04:17, 6 January 2012 (UTC).

Midline players could have always already taken defensive buffs like aegis or cleans in pve with little/no significant reduction in effectiveness since forever, eles in particular. But literally no one did. With MoM, all you're going to see 99.99999etc% of the time is probably some random assortment of 7 other skills and maybe on a good day they've remembered to actually assign the attribute points to the non-elemental skills taken.

As for putting them on hero teams...er...that already is the defacto for heroes and have been since they existed. Just look at the necro hero bars for example. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 90.196.101.248 (talk) at 06:28, 6 January 2012 (UTC).

If you notice Ele's still don't compare with other professions in PvE Please Let Anet Know

I definitely notice ele's are still way behind the other profs in pve, and I'd say the major issue resides with the bulk of their normal skills. All those changes to elites, but you can only take one in your bar. The other 7 skills in your bar are still pretty much all the same and are often leaving minimal impact overall in combat. These combat situations being only one ele on an 8 man team. The most effective implementation into a team I've been involved in has been Earthquake, Shadowstep, shockwave + crystal wave mixed with fragility from a mesmer. Ele gameplay still feels slow and labored and limited. Searing Flames builds are still the most well rounded in terms of overall effectiveness. I appreciate all the work put into the changes we have, fact is I am noticing more of an impact in PvP than anything. I recommend focusing more on regular skills in future skill updates, that could include effects like the old Mirror of Ice where the elite impacted many of the elementalist's normal skills. Sadly that skill option is no longer available to us. 76.181.167.16 04:35, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

The last sentence of the developer update: "Additionally, we'll be working a second update to address issues with some of the Elementalist non-elite skills as the elites in this update settle into their places. " Manifold 04:40, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing that out. Personally I would have rather seen changes to the bulk of an elementalist's skill bar first. 76.181.167.16 04:43, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I think Anet still is just beating around the bush with these updates. In my opinion the major issue in PvE is how all non-armor-ignoring spell damage scales with the level difference between the caster and the target. Due to this simple fact, eles will never compare to weapon wielding professions when facing level 28+ enemies. Sad but true. 78.92.2.154 11:40, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

You dont do less dmg because a foe is a higher lvl then you. That happens in pve because monsters Armor scaled exactly at 3/lvl just like spells armor penetration. The reason foes do more dmg for being a higher lvl then you is because they dont stop at lvl 20 with 60ar pen (or whatever its called). lvl 30 spells from foes will be 90 (30ar penetration which is almost double listed dmg). What this update did is make armor respecting dmg closer to match with armor ignoring dmg. I dont think they closed the gap because -5 to -15ar doesnt do crap against foes who have an extra 30ar just for being lvl 30. I thought they would just reduce all armor by 20 for foes in HM but that doesnt seem to be the case at all. If they wanted to balance the two then they would have to tack on at least 100hp which im thinking they probably didnt do either. If anything they probably ended up nerfing dmg as a whole which doesnt offend me anyhow. Justice 23:18, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Level Koda 01:00, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes you get 3ar pen/ lvl for spells. at lvl 20 your doing 100% dmg to lvl 60ar, at lvl 30 (monsters only) you do almost 200% listed dmg to lvl 60ar because you have 90ar pen. You dont take more dmg just because your a lower lvl. Tested on lvl 5 barrels with listed armor ratings. against my lvl 20 ele the 15 barrel did slightly more then double dmg. The 55ar barrel took slightly more then listed dmg. If lvl disparity truely was there i would be doing at least 4x dmg, more likely x5 listed dmg. Justice 02:03, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

you don't get armour penetration depending on your level. that's the greatest stupidity I have ever heard. Use flare on a level 5 character against the AR60 dummies and you get what Koda Kumi meant. 88.152.25.23 02:10, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

armor shift or whatever you wanna call it. 3ar/lvl. so a lvl 1 would do half dmg agaisnt a 43ar target NO MATTER THAT TARGET'S LVL. I can tell you right here without testing that a lvl ~7 will do ~ half dmg to a lvl 20 60ar barrel. That same lvl 7 would do ~ the same dmg to a lvl 5, 55ar barrel. The dmg you send out is certainly effected by your lvl @ 3ar/lvl. The dmg a target would take is affected by their armor rating NOT their lvl. What causes the confusion is anets armor formula for pve foes follows the same +3ar/lvl. Strip off all the armor from a lvl 1 character and a lvl 20 character. An armor respecting spell will hit both for the same dmg. Justice 03:27, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Okay, I had my formulas messed up in my head. Thanks for clearing that up. 78.92.2.154 10:00, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

"The reason foes do more dmg for being a higher lvl then you is because they dont stop at lvl 20 with 60ar pen (or whatever its called)"

This part of what you said is wrong. Enemies of higher level do not get any armor penetration, they just do more armor-respecting damage. I gave you the link to where you can find this information. Skills, equipment, and Strength give armor penetration. Level gives a raw damage boost or damage penalty for all armor-respecting damage. There is a big difference between the 2 because base armor penetration does not stack. Koda 14:56, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

"Or whatever you want to call it" since there really isnt a name for it. Every lvl you get 3ar penetration. Your targets dont loose armor because you lvl so it isnt a debuff to them (like cracked armor). You literaly do dmg that penetraits armor at 3/lvl, its just not % based. Strength in a way really is related best to this effect except that scales with attribute points and increases by percent. Lvl = armor respecting spell dmg and strength = armor respecting dmg from attack skills. Justice 03:12, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

No, you don't get armour penetration. And YOU don't get this either. 88.152.25.23 03:18, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

"Or whatever you want to call it" And yes i do get it. Which is what makes this frustrating to explain to people that dont. Its complicated and its not. I figured it out on my presearer. Charr casters have ~20ar so a lvl 20 spell caster should do ~ double dmg (3x20[60]-20=40=double dmg). But charr casters like the ele boss do the same dmg to you if your lvl 5 or lvl 20. Why? Because you dont have armor upgrades in pre (beyond insignias ofcoarse). Dmg thrown out is affect by the casters lvl and the targets armor, nothing more. So ele in post DO benefit from monster armor ratings reduced. Their lvl is not what matters. So the OP was wrong in the idea that they failed to target monsters lvls wrather then their ar. Justice 03:40, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Problem being that monster AR is directly connected to level (now with a certain malus in hardmode). 88.152.25.23 03:44, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Additionally, this doesn't justify your nonsensical idea of "level based armour penetration". The phrase is flat-out incorrect. Try to actually grasp what Koda Kumi wrote. 88.152.25.23 03:46, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Lol...yes ar is generally tied directly to their lvl. But saying there is a disparity for being a lower lvl then them is absolutely incorrect. Which is what Koda Kumi wrote by sugesting that IP was correct. And yes, "lvl based armor penetraion" does exist. lvl 7 will do half dmg to a 60ar barrel but a lvl 20 will do full dmg. A lvl 20 will do double dmg vs a lvl 7 target with 20ar and a lvl 30 target with 20ar. Since no lvl disparity exists, lowering the foes lvl in hm would certainly reduce armor rating AND HEALTH which would be counter productive, the more obvious choice would be to reduce their armor rating. If they should reduce lvl rating anyhow (counter of all logic to this update) then they might aswell remove hardmode. Justice 03:58, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

It helps if you actually read what I write, Justice.

NO, there is no such thing as level-based armor penetration. You will not find anything like that in-game or on this wiki because it does not exist! Stop making shit up, it does not work when there are people around who know more about the subject than you do.

NO, a level 20 does not do less armor-respecting damage to a higher level enemy just because of the level. Higher level enemies have more armor and thus receive less armor-respecting damage.

YES, a level 30 does more armor-respecting damage to a level 20 just because of the level. Like I said before, this has nothing to do with armor penetration because AP does not stack. You can easily test this out for yourself with Judge's Insight. A Blade of Corruption does considerably more damage to you if it has an enchantment than when it does not. Once again, making shit up does not work. Stop spreading misinformation. Koda 11:31, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

OR WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT. IT SCALES AT EXACTLY 3AR/LVL. SO IT BEHAVES IN A WAY ONLY DESCRIBABLE TO RETARDS LIKE ARMMOR PENETRATION. NOT PERCENT BASED. Try reading wtf im saying. Actuually you did, and you understood that there is no such thing as lvl disparity so thats good. So again i know there is spell armor penetration but to people who cant wrap their heads around the idea, thats the best way to describe it to them. AKA whatever you want to call the effect. Justice 16:03, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

So instead of conceding your point, you proceed with personal attacks. I hope you feel proud of yourself. Koda 16:40, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

The initial statement that eles are way behind the other professions in pve is preposterous. The rangers and assassins are way worse off.--95.176.212.78 16:53, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

I lost my pride by allowing myself to be trolled by you and an IP. Justice 17:05, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

@95.176.212.78 - Rangers and Sins are better off than ele's in HM. I can think of three effective ranger builds off of the top of my head as a single target or AoE dps that work effectively in a standard Holy Trinity/Tank-n-Spank style team. Sins also have effective builds in HM for DPS and Tanking, sins are still fairly limited. Throw an ele on a team and it can only excel as a tank with Oby Flesh or EMo heal, but dealing damage is not something it excels at even with the update. The mesmer and dervish are top dogs for dps due to it being relatively high, sustainable, and AoE. Using those as staples and the ele isn't coming close right now, it's definitely behind the ranger and assassin too. If you need to see how the ranger and sin are better at damage in HM, I'll be happy to post skill combinations; providing an elementalist bar for the ideas in your head would allow me to draw better comparisons through the skills I provide. 76.181.167.16 20:31, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

I use a fire ele hero with the heat aoe spells. I take ebon ward of honor(?) for +15dmg to them. Its the difference of night and day. I think they could have added +5 dmg (armor ignoring and tailored to each specific element) to each attunement skill and maybe +10 all elemental dmg dealt to elemental attunement. Elementalist would then do some armor ignoring dmg and give them a reason to even use attunement skills (energy is free with bip or br in pve anyhow). Also it wouldnt give monsters any real advantage because +5 to rediculous is nothing. Although im not sure pumping more dmg into the game is the solution. Justice

If you want to use skills that cause scatter, that can be matched with a ranger. Incindiary Arrows/Triple Shot + Ignite Arrows (causes scatter) in EBSoHonor. Better though is Splinter Barrage because of there being no scatter. These are also sustainable or have little downtime, plus the ranger's utility in interrupts makes it a better choice, and on top of that is survivability due to higher armor and block skills. A sin can basically do the same thing with barrage, but needs splinter weapon or great dwarf weapon to come from a rit which may or may not be a big deal depending on the people you play with. -- 76.181.167.16 04:10, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

You do not need to be a ritualist to use GDW. Koda 16:09, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Used it alot on my mesmer. Tossed it on a volley/pet hero and my paragon hero on recharge. I eventually dumped it from play though as i found ebon ward of honor to be very satisfying. After replacing volley hero with fire ele ofcoarse (one skill no other profession can truely match for shutdown is meteorshower!)Justice 10:02, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

"one skill no other profession can truely match for shutdown is meteorshower!" Scythe or Barrage w/IAS + GDW? -- 76.181.167.16 23:06, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Last time I checked, Wanderlust was still in the game. Also, a 5 second CT shutdown spell is inferior to almost everything a mesmer has. Koda 16:34, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

So, with regards to the major aside above, I think that there was a lot of terminology thrown around and a lot of mistaking that terminology. Now, as per the damage calculation armor about skills/spells, players/monsters do hit harder as their level scales. Whether you call it "Attack Rating" (direct opposite of Armor Rating, so it could be considered armor penetration) or just an increase in damage, it works out the same. Just fyi. --JonTheMon 19:31, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

But it sucks when explanations only served to confuse and number/terminology manipulating to explain game mechanics through your OWN views outside of the equations the developers themselves use just complicate matters. If you think you know better than Anet themselves on describing game mechanics then take it up with them yourself. 'Maybe' they'll accept that as the 'official' game mechanic explanation. -Wrei110.175.241.56 11:49, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Skills History?

Shall we add them to the notes of each skills to compare old versions with new ones? Yoshida Keiji talk 05:00, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

There's already a project for that. Following their formatting, go ahead and add them, a lot of them need it :P ~FarloTalk 05:32, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Guessing...

So I'm guessing they'll be doing this for the other professions in preparation for GW2? If so when? Onto this update....good and bad....air magic is obsolete now--184.8.108.1 08:59, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Obsolete? How so? 64.15.81.27 09:49, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Hmm ... interesting. Air Elementalists are now "obsolete" because Invoke Lightning and Chain Lightning have had Exhaustion re-introduced onto them. Erm, no offence dude, but there are plenty of other viable Air Elementalist builds out there. And take a look at the brand new Blinding Surge. Yum yum extra damage. Makes the added utility of blind a great option in PvE. Also, try not to look at this from a PvP perspective. ArenaNet have said in the in-game announcement that this was done to make Elementalists more viable and versatile in PvE. Donutdude 13:25, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Upcoming changes and features#Skill balance and profession updates. --Silver Edge 09:59, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

elementalist is now worse (so is rit)

→ moved from Feedback_talk:Game_updates#elementalist is now worse (so is rit)

Elementalist is worse not better. If Invoke Lightning and Chain Lightning were problems in PVP then you should have made PVP versions not ruined them for PVE. But that's typical you always screw PVE players instead of fixing PVP. Always being exhausted renders these skills useless. Cracked armor does nothing to most foes, adding it to some skills did nothing to improve them. You increased the recharge time on several skilsl, reducing their effectiveness. And you must hate Ritualists to nerf five of their skills (SOS for the second time). Next update you may as well remove Invoke Lightning and Signet of Spirits elite status because there now worse than most normal skills. What are you going to do next nerf paragon shouts so that paragon is renderd unplayable? And BTW there is still no paragon mini, you could have fixed that last GW BDAY but no you had to do useless tonics instead. Reducing HM foes armor but adding health, made HM harder not easier. Ramei Arashi 15:38, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

The update has been out for less than a day. It's amazing that the metagame has already adjusted and you've been able to test the new changes in so many different builds that we can conclude they are worthless!~ Gold Dean - 17:03, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Now THAT is a retort! Habar414 17:24, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

"Cracked armor does nothing to most foes" If they have more than 60 AR - which I am sure every HM foe does, along with most creatures lvl 20 and higher - it does stuff. That stuff is on par to deep wound: It makes them die faster if you continue damage.

"And you must hate Ritualists to nerf five of their skills" Oh noes, five of many dozen skills were nerfed. IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD!!!1!1!1one!!1!

"And BTW there is still no paragon mini" Because the most useless items in the game next to Zho's Journal and the User Golem Manual are important enough for them to care about the non-existent profession of the minis. Konig/talk 17:46, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

^agreed. Rits were the epitomy of O^P (SOS farming including with DWG). And this also included DOA which was basically just Ursan all over again when all the right pieces fell into place (shelt + Imba + winter frostmantra lolololwuts mobdamage???). The only guys I feel bad for in all of this much needed nerfing is the Rangers who found a niche on teams when a Rit wasn't around. Those guys (and Non-imba Paragons) are looking at the Dreariest of existences now since Guildwars2 will be out before they get their primary skill buffs... They might as well just uninstall right now b/c no one's recruiting Bow rangers or Trapping rangers or Motivation/Leadership Paras for Meta teams and once GW2 is out no one will be recruiting teams AT ALL. --ilr 21:54, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Elementalist are worse??? Seriously if exaustion for you is a problem, I think you shouldn't play ele at all, currently owning everything with mind burn - The Wizard --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.16.90.207 (talk).

Same thing here, 5 points of exhaustion is nothing with high enough energy, Mind Burn now owns and i'm sure Invoke Lightning will also stll own. People are complaining much too fats, they havn't even tried it out themselves. Da Mystic Reaper 18:56, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm actually glad to see Mind Burn get adjacent AoE and reduced exhaustion, in fact, I remember suggesting reduced exhaustion for this and many other skills because the 4x longer recovery (1 energy/3 secs for exhaustion vs 4 energy/3 secs for recovery) itself was too large of a price to pay for many of the skills, especially single target "spammable" skills, and there is no way to boost recovery like, for instance, with Blood is Power. The nerfs I was entirely expecting - SoS is still the damage of two Pain spirits instead of almost 3 (for zero energy). Glaive, Ancestors' Rage and Mistrust were being abused, and skills being abused, and skills like Invoke Lightning and Chain Lightning seem to be going back toward their roots, where you get higher damage and spike-ability for some future additional recovery cost. --Falseprophet 22:56, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

"Next update you may as well remove Invoke Lightning and Signet of Spirits elite status because there now worse than most normal skills" - Ok, name 10 normal skills that beat SoS at what is does. Random Weird Guy 16:08, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

You won't get an awnser on that one since there isn't even 1 skill that does the same job as SoS. Da Mystic Reaper 18:59, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Just for the sake of Argument, Aura of the Lich. -- 76.181.167.16 04:00, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

That's an elite. The question was normal skills. :P Konig/talk 06:59, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Call to the Spirit Realm. Just sayin'. 76.106.241.157 20:02, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

That's only with a certain disguise, which is extremely limited and you can't access in general PvE. Most of those skills are OP, such as Nature's Blessing. Random Weird Guy 22:20, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

I was just correcting an erroneous statement. There is "1 skill that does the same job as SoS", it's just in a bonus mission pack.

As for general PvE, when a skill does do the same thing as another, people whine about duplicate skills. When an elite skill does something an elite skill should, people whine about it being OP. Unfortunately, spirits don't always attack the same target and they only do/did ~20dmg every 2 seconds. They're basically auto-attack-only ranger heroes with poor health that habitually ignore target-calling. The only thing these spirits had going for them was their armor-ignoring damage, but even that has been nerfed. Without Painful Bond, SoS spirits only caused ~25dmg each. That's ~75dmg total, provided they all miraculously attack the same target. ~75dmg/2s is incomparable to any decent warrior, dervish or assassin. If something needed to be nerfed, it would've been Painful Bond, not SoS. Anet has now necessitated Painful Bond in any SoS build. So, now SoS costs two skill slots and 15 energy, has a casting time of 2 seconds, has a 42s recharge time and is a removable hex. 76.106.241.157 11:22, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Inconsistent description between similar skills

Stone Sheath, Double Dragon & Gust.

• SS and DD start: you and target ally, while Gust starts: both you and target ally.
• SS and Gust start in the second funtionality with: When you cast this spell. But not DD, maybe because it has a third extra functionality. Yoshida Keiji talk 16:58, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

The reason SS and Gust have "When you cast this spell" notes and DD doesn't is because they both have effects that trigger only when you initially cast them but all of DD's effects are continuous throughout its duration. As for the "both," eh...chalk it up to caprice. :D Thanks for checking. ~ Matthew Moore 19:18, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I personally believe that some of the descriptions are misleading. For example, Neither Stone Sheath or Double Dragon need to target you or an ally. You can also target foes (though it won't enchant the foe). I realize that this won't really bug more experienced players, but newer players might be thrown off. When I first read the notes I was less than impressed because I thought I couldn't use those skills to target foes, so it would take a bit more microing on my part. Then again, maybe I'm over thinking this. Just my $.02 [ Tyloric ] [ Talk ] 22:56, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I apparently got that wrong too. They will target the nearest ally to your target enemy. That's even more confusing. [ Tyloric ] [ Talk ] 23:53, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for mentioning it. See this discussion on the support forums for answers. ~ Matthew Moore 20:40, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

If I may suggest: Now that every mugger and pickpocket in the Jade Brotherhood is relentlessly spamming Double Dragon, should it not at least be dropped from the Elite Skills list, and made available via a trainer, vs the present situation; where it seems you have to wipe out the Brotherhood to kill the boss to capture the skill; which they are all relentlessly spamming?

I do understand the desire to make them a challange, the Am Fah mobs a few blocks away get annoying with their constant Suicide Drops. But still, If its Elite its Elite, if its more common than roaches! It’s not Elite, no? Just asking for A little consistency here. </P. Blackbird 9Feb2012 17:00 GMT

--The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Blackbirdx61 (talk).

Fronis Irontoe in HM

→ moved from Feedback_talk:Game_updates#Fronis Irontoe in HM

His lair is ridiculously more difficult to beat when playing as low AL professions. The enemies take too long to kill with the current skills, making it impossible to recover enough health to deal with the mobs. The aid of Kilroy doesn't do much either. Please fix this as it makes a fun dungeon really frustrating and slow.75.66.82.131 17:08, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Wait, hard mode is hard? That doesn't seem fair. Thrain | contribs 00:46, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

That's not his point. Its not HM in general but that little mini game of dwarf bashing. Your skills and health are fixed but enemies' health is lowered to compensate. Even in HM you get a boost in health + the dual attack to compensate for the enemy health boast which is balanced and manageable providing you are competent. But suddenly this update boasts the enemy health even more while you remain pretty much the same throwing things out of balance. -Wrei110.175.241.56 05:35, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I could see that. Significantly greater enemy HP actually has a cumulative effect on the time it takes to clear the dungeon:

Given the same DPS and more enemy HP, the time to kill each enemy is increased.

Because the time to kill each enemy is increased, and mid-combat healing is contingent on enemy kills, the rate at which you receive bursts of healing is reduced. This in turn increases the likelihood that you'll lose all of your HP mid-battle and need to wait to Stand Up! again.

Because you're more likely to die earlier due to receiving healing less frequently, you're more likely to leave Kilroy to be mobbed by the Stone Summit, resulting in earlier Kilroy deaths. The earlier Kilroy dies, the earlier you lose the extra DPS he gives for that encounter.

The net result is that you have to deal more damage to complete the dungeon while suffering a loss in the rate at which that damage is dealt. Even if it only adds a few minutes to complete the dungeon, I've always felt the extra experience and rewards in Fronis Irontoe's Lair in Hard Mode were barely worth the extra time and effort spent as it was. MA Anathe 09:18, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

I just did it HM without dropping once, I don't see a problem. Are you spamming your skills or using them properly? --Silven 10:21, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

I think you are all forgetting that, although enemies' HP is increased, their AL is lowered. So everything should be about the same. --Musha 10:49, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

AFAIK, the damage dealt by the skills we have in Fronis Irontoe's lair are armor-ignoring. So no, in this specific mini-game, it isn't "about the same", it's a net HP gain for the ennemies. 84.103.214.221 12:56, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

hi, before the HM update this could be clear in 10 min with a lot of practice and the avrg time would be 15 mins, now on a low AL char (monk, ele, etc) it takes a lot of effort and runs take abou 25min for me. i just want to point out that the hm changes broke this dungeon and some players think it should be reworked to be a viable again for every one that used to do the dungeon or regular basis( farms and stuff)--89.153.148.103 13:19, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Cantha Courier Crisis has same problem, its also a lot harder--89.153.148.103 19:33, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

wait anet fucked something really bad trying to fix something not overly bad?...GUYS this is evry update, it shouldnt be a surpsie anymore, and this incompitent company wants u to trust in them they have gw2 fixed...no they dont or wont anytime soon, i bet my guild wars game account, maybe a week or 2 after the launch of gw2...people are gonna be complaining about bugs/unbalancedness, etc, left right and centre, but also Arena Net did fuck the kilroy dungeon on purpose, also fucked the canthan courier crisis on purpose so people couldnt legendary survivor farm so easy...well excuse me, but any role can have a Mo/R EoE bonder hero come with them and they can use Deadly paradox+Sahdow form and Shroud of distress+Radiation field to farm legendary survivor quicker..+glacial stones to make glacial gloves and my last 100 glacial stones i sold for 75K so fuck kilroys dungeon farm, it should only need to be done once NM and once HM--124.187.173.7 23:09, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Hero AI

Heroes can't use Gust, Double Dragon, Stone Sheathe, Mirror of Ice and Thunderclap among other skills on their own. And while testing two Heroes, one with Master of Magic & Arcane Mimicry while the other uses Mist Form & Arcane Mimicry, the Master of Magic hero did not mimic the other heroes' Mist Form on their own and will require micro-management to keep both elite enchantments up for said hero. Furthermore, heroes seem to prioritize mimicking Elemental Attunement above Master of Magic. Other less maintainable elites remains untested. Zencow 05:09, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Wanna join the new AI skills usage Project? Yoshida Keiji talk 05:28, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

also necro heroes wont use enfeebling blood for some reason, im micro manging it to even get used(of course removed skill). --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 124.187.173.7 (talk) at 23:12, 2012 June 29 (UTC).

You got the wrong page. That skill was last changed in Thursday March 2, 2006. -- Yoshida Keiji talk 08:09, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Still No Paragon Love

I'd like to run something good other than Imbagon plx. Paragons have lots of lame skills, and their playstyle could be greatly improved with some new functionality. Thankies. 76.185.6.231 06:38, 7 January 2012 (UTC) --Rikk Panda

Yeah, they've have been first on my "should be fixed" list for years. I think Anet is just neglecting them because they are an unpopular character choice in the first place. 78.92.2.154 10:03, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't know why you, for some unknown reason, think that ANet would suddenly multitask 2 things at once, as we've seen over the years that's much too hard. --Silven 10:17, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

They probably saw the ele together with the HM changes as a priority. I can understand it since the ele had lost it's role as main damage dealer since buffs to skills such as RoJ, SoS and Mistrust. The HM armor-health change not only benefits the ele but warriors the unbuffed martial classes also benefit from it since physical damage now deals more damge as well. Since the update benefits more than just the ele it is understandeble why it came before the paragon. But i don't doubt that more people playing an ele than a paragon plays a role in the priority of the le update. Da Mystic Reaper 14:22, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Paragon is an unpopular choice BECAUSE they have neglected to fix it for so long. Its an unplayable class in most of the PvE side of the game (bar basically leeching off your heroes/team), undesirable in most of what's left, and not truly necessary in the small corner that they look attractive/are desired for a warrior skill. Elementalists may suck, and may have been slipping down a deep dark pit for a while. But at least they can find some role in any part of the game in PvE. This should have placed Paragons as a far higher priority then Elementalists, even if the latter is a far more popular character choice. The HM armor-health change is a negligibly small benefit to unbuffed martial, but seems to have nerfed every caster except Elementalist, thus it is not an all around benefit. Lillium 16:21, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Death Magic benefits from the change, Blood Magic and in particular life-steal does not. Degeneration may also have taken a blow but in PvE it only serves as pressure and not as a method to kill, that hardly has any impact. Armor ignoring damage dealt by hexes are still working fine and cannot be called a nerf, balance would be the more appropriate word. And paragons do have a place in PvE, i assume you have not forgotten the imbagon. Da Mystic Reaper 17:02, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

I've managed to play effective Paragon builds in HM without resorting to Save Yourselves or There's Nothing to Fear and with human players I was told that I was good. Hell, I've seen people diss my favorite two paragon elites yet I work well with them.

@DaMystic: It depends on how one would define a "nerf" or a "buff" - in the extreme, it's making a change to something one dislikes/likes to an enjoyed skill, which is how most people view the terms in regards to skill balance; then there's the middle ground view of something harmful/helpful to any skill (which is the most accurate usage, imo); and finally there's "making things imbalanced by making it underpowered/overpowered" which seems to be how you're using the terms. Lillium used the first (for clarity). Konig/talk 20:40, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Nobody uses those elites because of the 30 second recharge for the first and the presence of Aggressive Refrain for the second. Most of the paragon skills suffer from a severe lack of use because paragons were a bad idea to begin with. The fact that every GvG team used Aegis in the history of the skill as a party-wide block web should have been an indicator that a class based on party-wide effects is nearly impossible to balance because the effect will either be ridiculously good (like GftE or concentration) or barely noticeable (like most of the other paragon skills).

What makes it extra hard to balance paragons is when you use more of them. Everyone who played Diablo 2 and knows what they are doing never uses gems or runes that give a bonus to 1 resistance because using multiple runes or gems that give +resist all give a far better result. Just halving the recharge of Angelic Bond might look good on paper, but what if 4 paragons use it? Suddenly, your enemies have 15 seconds in which they have to do 800 extra damage to kill ANY 1 of your party members. What about Energizing Finale? How do you change this skill without it giving infinite energy to every party member or becoming even worse? I can only imagine the balancing team using their dartboard again because they have no other way to solve this mess they created. Koda 12:00, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

I believe I've said it before on more than one occassion (before the current flux whether in-game or out) that misuse of multiple copies of shouts maybe negated by having them DISABLED for all other members when one uses it and by having more of them be adrenaline based (increasing the impact on disabled skills). The January2012 flux proves they got the technical coding to do this so I'd be very surprised if they don't implement the para fix very soon. -Wrei110.175.241.56 07:04, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

In PvE, I always found /Ele had pretty decent synergy with my non-imba Goon. I wouldn't be surprised if a few hybrid builds could be finagled out of this update b/c as a Para: 1> you're already a Dazing machine, and 2> Abuse the new Ele Elites /w unlimited Free Energy if you play it just right. --ilr 22:13, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Gust

Assassin / Elementalist
Dagger Mastery	12 + 1 + 1
Air Magic	10
Critical Strikes	8 + 1
Gust Falling Spider Horns of the Ox Falling Lotus Strike Twisting Fangs Shock Conjure Lightning Resurrection Signet

Just a thought. →[ »Halogod (talk)« ]← 08:40, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

That looks pretty good, I wonder how well it'd work fine-tuned and whatnot. ~FarloTalk 11:10, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Considering Gust does double the damage if you target yourself (yea, I thought Anet had a testing team too), it would work fine. Koda 11:34, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

MoI + Conjure could also be an option if the 30 seconds of exhaustion is too much. 76.181.167.16 21:03, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

How is this statement by ANet not categorically untrue?

Reducing the armor of foes and raising their Health helps keep Elementalists relevant while maintaining the overall effectiveness of professions that deal armor ignoring damage. - Anet update page

If armor on foes is reduced then armor-ignoring damage is of same effectiveness. But if you also raise health, then it is of reduced effectiveness. The statement is therefore a lie. --95.176.212.78 16:46, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

And another one: "Since Air Magic already has good AoE damage options..." Koda 16:55, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Balance?

This is the most unbalanced update in a long time. Elementalists would have been fine with some minor skill changes to focus more on conditions, buffs, and armor ignoring damage. Apparently someone thinks that its better to break things that are already fine rather than fix things that actually need to be fixed, such as Nature rituals. -- Kirbman 22:28, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Well obviously it's too hard work, and this is funnier. -Cursed Angel 23:26, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Basically what I read from your comment Kirbman is basically "give everyone armor ignoring damage and it's balanced" - in which case what's the point in the skills people would have which doesn't ignore armor, or what would be the point of armor at all?

I find it funny that people complain and complain and complain about things being broken, but when those broken things are altered, both the same and different people state that they weren't broken at all. Konig/talk 23:48, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps another perspective is framing the idea that achieving balance by lowering one side is less ideal than raising the other, particularly if your side was the one that was lowered. Naturally, if the raising of the other side had occurred instead, a separate group of people may have voiced displeasure for other reasons they deem legitimate. Crysania Anchorwind [Quin] 07:00, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Konig you misunderstood. By giving elementalists some means of armor ignoring damage would make them more viable against high armor HM targets. If you need an example of an attribute that takes advantage of both types of damage take a look at Death Magic or Channeling Magic. -- Kirbman 03:58, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Giving eles armour-ignoring damage also means HM ele monsters, and especially HM ele bosses, would do even more damage to you. And guys like Korshek, Ilsundur, Borguus et al are crazy enough already. -- Hong 08:34, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Imagine if every single elementalist boss was replaced by a Roaring Ether boss, that would be basically what armor-ignoring damage in elementalist bosses would be like. The ANet logo would have to be replaced by a Trollface. You can't give more armor-ignoring damage to elementalsits because, well, they are elementalists, they are all about the elements and their effects: elemental damage, conditions, party support... not just about raw damage, so they don't really need more armor ignoring damage. MithTalk 12:35, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Except that armor-ignoring damage would only benefit from their higher attributes and not from their level advantage anymore, so the damage would not be necessarily higher. Some counters would become inefficient (like SY, so it would be a good thing!) but that is all. Koda 15:57, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, armor-ignoring damage from high level targets actually doesn't hit most players as hard as armor-respecting damage. 63.232.208.113 16:01, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Not really. That's just because armor-ignoring monsters rarely have heavy damage oriented builds like Roaring Ethers have. Many mesmer monsters are illusionists that deal degen or interrupters, or rely in hexes instead dealing direct armor-ignoring damage. Bring more armor like Wards Against Elements, Ward Against Harm or Save Yourselves, and armor-respecting damage doesn't hit so hard, while against armor-ignoring you'll need things like Union, that also work against armor-respecting anyways. MithTalk 22:27, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Free list of effective concepts in HM for those who may now be having trouble

If you haven't been using these all along, they're all still just as effective.

Offense

Area of Effect + Balled up Enemies

Prioritizing Targets

Deep Wound/Cracked Armor

Scythe + Vow of Strength + Sand Shards

Panic/Psychic Instability + Wastrel's Worry/Demise

Ineptitude + Clumsiness + Wandering Eye

EBSoHonor + GDW + Attacks (Barrage)

AoE Attacks (Barrage/Scythe) + Splinter Weapon

Fevered Dreams + Fragility + Conditions

Defense

Party/Area of Effect

Prot the tank + Stay away from tank's aggro

Meat Shields (Signet of Spirits/Minions)

Imbagon

Blind/Daze/Weakness

Soul Twisting + Shelter + Union

Knockdowns + Interrupts

The more important things in the lists don't involve specific skills. Some more information can be found in the Guide to hard mode and it's links. -- 76.181.167.16 03:11, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Implying anyone who dislikes the latest changes isn't already familiar with at least most of these obvious "tips". Such sarcastic condescension is rather boorish. 76.106.241.157 20:21, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

It's actually a late preemptive move for people who feel higher health HM enemies are too hard. It's just helpful information really. People have positive posts on the wiki. 76.181.167.16 23:01, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm skeptical but, if you truly meant no ill-will, my apologies. 76.106.241.157 20:52, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Hard Mode is supposed to be hard. That's why it's called Hard Mode. Random Weird Guy 22:52, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Captain Obvious, there's a blue sky somewhere that needs to be pointed out! Hurry, before it's too late! 76.106.241.157 11:26, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

The sad truth is that many of those complain about changes are those that just take a build from a friend or PvX and stick to that, and wouldn't know the faintest thing about mechanics and such. They just mash buttons and get angry when the mashing no longer works as always. You can point them out by asking them about why they do not like the changes, they'll won't answer clearly, or digress, or answer with lies or misconceptions, or just repeat something someone else said or wrote without them understanding it completely, or won't answer at all. MithTalk 14:53, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

TBH i am clueless why they are complaining, Searing Flames and Savannah Heat havn't been changed at all and neither have been the skills around them. In case of Invoke Lightning and Chain Lightning, 5 points of exhaustion is something you hardly notice and by the time you have taken out your foe you can recover from it in no time. Even Obsidian Flesh has not been changed nor any tanking skill around it so yay for those damned farmers as well, no reason for them to complain either. If it's just the change of the skills buffing the elementalist well then tough luck, it's what the vast majority of the people playing GW want to see. Anet isn't going to undo the change just because 0.01% doesn't like it. Da Mystic Reaper 17:01, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Obsi Flesh has been nerfed a long time ago, and nobody uses SHeat in pve because it causes enemies to scatter (what, of course, you do not want to happen as fire ele). Koda 17:46, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm one of those complaining about the changes and I don't use PvX. Ever. Why don't I like them? When I make my own builds, I tend to grow attached to the ones I enjoy playing. When skills or mechanics that made those builds as enjoyable as they were are nerfed, it's like building your dream house and coming home to find out someone torched it. Not fun.

A bit late in the game, but I had put together a lightning spear build for a primary ele that depended on Shell Shock to offer damage comparable to a decent ranger and even some warriors (when all skills and effects went off without a hitch). The cracked armor nerf and health buff on enemies has rendered it obsolete. I really enjoyed that build, it was fun to run around as a spear-chucking ele that could actually contribute. There have been other nerfs in the past that destroyed builds that I put together and enjoyed playing. My critscythe, for one. While similar builds were likely all over PvX in all their variants, I built mine from scratch. I was sad to see it go. The sad truth is that many of those who think anyone with a complaint is just another PvX freeloader are those who just think they're the center of the universe and wouldn't know the faintest thing about being a casual gamer tired of continually finding a way to play the game that they can enjoy only to have it systematically torn apart over and over again. 76.106.241.157 21:05, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Ehh unless my math is wrong cracked armor still works in high-end and HM since monsters still have armor above 60. You will still deal damage and now even more but the increase in health should balance it out so the time killing them should not have changed for you since lightning damage and spear attacks are armor-rated. Unless a key skill has been changed that lightning spear build of yours should still work. Since i don't have the build i can't try it out myself but have you tried it out yet? :) Da Mystic Reaper 01:12, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Most enemies have around 70 armor. Physicals usually have more than that. But the original point was that people have forgotten how to play this game. If someone has to compile a list of mechanics that work well, it is clear that the bulk of the players have no idea of what they are doing. I put the blame on Nightfall, where the game made a full 180 away from being a skill-based game into the realm of games where grinding gets you into high-end areas. No longer did it have a smooth learning curve, it was easy for 90% of the campaign with almost no learning involved. You just let overpowered heroes do everything and grind LB/Sunspear points for DoA.

Now we are at the point where you no longer need to have a clue about how the game works anymore. When you have advanced far enough in the storyline, the game points you to where you can get level 20 heroes and steamroll through the rest of the game. There is no incentive to team up with other players except for DoA, UW and FoW, which have both been turned into a big joke because of mechanics that should not be in the game anyway. This game has become a mockery, and GW2 will become even worse because Anet wants to make a WoW clone with the worst tools in the MMO industry, and all the idiots that need the above list are looking forward for it, grinding all the way to get 50/50 on their HoM. Let me tell you, the big boys are looking forward to run away with your money once they pull the plug out. Koda 16:28, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Even if those things are removed it doesn't change a damn thing because those things are not the problem. Main reason is that there has not been a single update for PvE. Monsters still use the same builds and the same AI since the came out. Players and skills have become significantly stronger while the monsters have not, that is the main problem why thegame can be steamrolled with ease. The only game content that currently matches the level of skill of players is the new content of GW Beyond wich is something that does give players a challange. Second reason if PvX giving players easy builds without much play. Fixing old content won't work anymore so the focus not is purely on new content wich as WoC. And about GW2 , it's nowhere near as crappy as WoW is let alone a copy (even better WoW has been copying GW2 with Cataclysm)...Well i doubt you have any reliable knowledge of GW2 since i gues you have not been following the game progress since you don't want to buy the game anyways. Da Mystic Reaper 17:23, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

I could be wrong, but I thought hero and monster AI was modified in some way not too long ago. Do WiK and WoC count as updates for PvE or as new builds? My bad, I was hasty. You kinda answered that one. I agree that, once certain campaigns were introduced, the game became slightly less about playing intelligently/strategically and more about playing comfortably/easily. While I also agree that mob AI could use an update, I recognize that any change made to a PvE skill is done so throughout the game. Those changes are made to mob skills, too, unless I'm mistaken. Their entire builds, though... I suppose those could use some work. In HM, though, because you wouldn't want to push away more casual players by making NM only playable by experienced gamers. I'll probably end up buying GW2 just to see if the good outweighs the bad, which I'm optimistic for.

While my ele spear build has noticeably suffered a blow to its damage output (was doing ~60-90dmg per hit, now does ~40-60), it isn't catastrophic. I'm not happy with it, but I've whined about it enough for now. I'm rebuilding it, even if just for peace of mind. Fortunately, Deep Wound is still as effective as ever. 76.106.241.157 00:51, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Updating the AI for GW basically means making a new game because once again, Anet has the programming tools of a korean grindfest MMO and no experience with using good AI. Koda 14:41, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Good Thing for Flux

Worth mentioning it's a good thing there is this flux or else we would be seeing so many elespike builds in pvp. Probably intentional. Hopefully they will introduce a "cannot self target" clause to all these silly enchants. YoUrMoM --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 174.93.214.41 (talk).

LOL. Okay if eles were in close enough range with each other to simutaneously use these 'silly' enchants to spike a target then they'd use it on each other (not themselves) with similar effect outside flux. Unless of course that wasn't your implication. But then I'd still tell you "cannot self target" is hardly a fix in this situation. -Wrei110.175.241.56 11:59, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

UM yes it is. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 137.82.65.134 (talk) at 19:07, 13 January 2012 (UTC).

no --Silven 08:52, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

No. — Raine Valen 17:38, 14 Jan 2012 (UTC)

Automatic gainsaying does not make a discussion. elix Omni 01:39, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

No, it does. 88.152.25.23 04:59, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

What the hell kind of crack were they smoking when they designed that one? It costs the same thing as Counterspell but it only works on blues? –Jette 09:10, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Counterspell costs double blue. Gainsay is easier to splash and was from a set with heavy focus on multicolour. Sure, it's worse than Counterspell but not as much as one may think at first glance. 88.152.25.23 12:24, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Equinox

Anybody else notice that Equinox's skill description has been changed? Well, obviously, somebody has cause its updated on the wiki, but there's no note of it on this page. When did they update it? --Musha 07:24, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Arcane Languor and Exhausting Assault. Also Crystal Haze, but no one's updated it on this wiki yet (is there no interwiki prefix for Guildwiki here?). 198.160.96.7 22:42, 18 January 2012 (UTC)