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Alignment Misconception[edit]

Why is it "common knowledge" that the Mursaat are supposedly evil? There's no proof that they are. There is, however, much proof that they are good. -The Mursaat desperately fear the Titans, who play a main roll in the Flameseeker Prophecies. Noting this, they somewhat have to fear these prophecies. -The Mursaat, in their fear, keep to themselves within their mysterious citadels on the Ring of Fire, guarding the Door of Komalie. This, of course, keeps the Titans locked away in the Foundry of Failed Creations, preventing their magic from searing the world (The Charr received the power to sear Ascalon from their false gods, the Titans).

-The Seers, having similar appearance, have long opposed the Mursaat. They seem to support the Flameseeker Prophecies. Though we have no knowledge of the true context of these, I would assume that they can't be very "peachy". DarkNe7hUser DarkNe7h con.jpg 02:26, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

The Mursaat killed thousands in under three years just for the protection of their own race. It is unknown if they even cared about what the Titans would do to the rest of the world, and it is known that the only reason why they helped Kryta was for their power and influence over it. Also, Seers and Mursaat have similar appearances? Completely false: Seers have 4 arms, no toes but elongated feet (so elongated it looks like they can't be used to walk), slender legs, and a bald head; Mursaat have 2 arms and 3 large toes but normal sized feet, regular sized legs, and have a design similar to a brain on their head (though this may be their helmet) and have the fen-like appendixes coming out their back (though this may not be a biological feature but part of their outfit). The Seer (we only meet one) don't so much support the prophecies as much as supports the defeat of the Mursaat.
That said, where the heck does it say it is "common knowledge" that the Mursaat are evil? The words "common" "knowledge" and "evil" are never used in the article. -- Konig/talk 04:43, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

The Mursaat are neither evil nor good. They are acting for the survival of their own race and are happy to let others die as a result of this. Though some would call this evil, I think it is what any race would do to survive. Also, for the record, I think Mursaat are awesome and wish, in Prophecies, you could choose to join them and fight the Shining Blade. That would be sweet. Elvynd Doomscythe

The Mursaat are entirely evil. They wanted to rule all of Tyria, enslaving the few the left alive. They masqueraded as deities and had innocent people murdered in the name of their worship. There is something very wrong with some one who cannot recognize evil when they see it. Ramei Arashi 06:33, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
Hmmm, I can't seem to recall anything that said that they wanted to rule all of Tyria and enslave those left alive. I know Khilbron wanted to do that, and I know the Stone Summit did, and I know Joko does (well, at least all of Elona)... but Mursaat? Perhaps you can provide a source for that. Though I do agree that they are evil. -- Konig/talk 09:08, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
i dont see how they are evil all they wanted was to prevent the evil Khilbron from gaining a army that would wipe out... all the chosen were were people who were chosen to open the gate for the Khilbron.- User Zesbeer sig.png Zesbeer 14:05, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
Not every chosen would of been able to open the door, given the fortifications. And even then, if the Mursaat just stopped and thought, they would of realized that killing off thousands of humans would eventually attract those who would wish the Mursaat's demise - thus their own actions, and their lack of foresight, led to their own death. Without the chosen, Khilbron wouldn't have been able to open the Door, without a reason to fight, the chosen would not go after the Mursaat. Also: No where does it say that the Mursaat were out to stop Khilbron. Given their nature, it's far more likely they were out to save their own rears. -- Konig/talk 18:34, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
Also note they where attempting to keep the Door of Komalie closed because it lead to the Foundry within DoA, thus meaning they where fighting against Abaddon, but in a more sadistic way than the Order of Whispers. This would lead more to the line that they, like the Margonites and Forgotten, are possibly quite ancient and had some foresight as to what could come either by the hands of Abaddon or as result of his downfall. As such though some of their intentions where indeed good, the manner in which they brought those intentions to action where not always such. --Wolf Moonstar 5:28, 8 April 2010 [EST]
Actually, it doesn't mean that they were fighting Abaddon (finally someone spelled the name right and not spelled "Abbadon!"), it just means that they knew the Flameseeker Prophecies said that what was behind the door would kill them. They might not have even known the threat were Titans! -- Konig/talk 23:26, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
Just wondering, where did the "thousands" of murdered people came along? They've killed a handful of white mantle during Saul's assassination of the Charr invaders of Kryta. And then every year they would round up a few "chosen"... all right... Maybe I'm bad at maths? The Mursaat ARE extremely unfriendly, though. With Vorlon-like secrecy and paranoia along with a bloody past fueling the fires of a terrible fear of the Titans. Khibron, though, is the true second-rate villain around here. I mean, he went all the way into the middle of nowhere in the shiverpeaks to recover Spoiler-related boss's body just to throw him to a 2 minute fight with the heroes of Prophecies? Aw, come on. How much more useless cliche can you get? Not even Varesh (with her "I'm going to summon a god that will destroy the world! For the lulz") beats that one - VileLasagna 23:37, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
The number comes from one of the killed chosen who says thousands were killed. We see at least about 24 chosen in Prophecies (those we helped find, and 2 groups in Bloodstone Fen - one at the beginning (we can see them overlooking the first cliff) and one at the end), but over three years we're told that thousands were killed. -- Konig/talk 01:24, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
Oh well. Can't argue with a crazy green guy. Makes more sense but I particularly don't think that's only three years work. The fall of abaddon and the flameseeker prophecies and the shattering of the bloodstones are all old news. Guess this makes me join all those people that'd like to see more clarification and structuring of Mursaat history now =P - VileLasagna 01:43, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
"...and have the fen-like appendixes..." - fen-like or fern-like? This potential misspelling was just published as a Featured Article. Adeira Tasharo 01:38, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
if u see a spelling error feel free to fix it thats kind of the point of a wiki.- User Zesbeer sig.png Zesbeer 01:55, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
Only administrators can edit main page. You know it. - J.P.User J.P. sigicon.pngTalk 02:05, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
"There is something very wrong with some one who cannot recognize evil when they see it." Why do people feel the need to act like this? Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә User Aliceandsven 1.png ѕνәи Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 02:08, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
"Heed not the words of the rebel" =P... Also it's been shown already that that person was assuming a bit too much. All we have concrete on the Mursaat was that they wanted to save themselves from horrible and fiery death and went along with trickery and genocide for that. The ascended heroes don't really manage to do any complex plan like passing for gods and rallying an army, but they DO turn on the genocide machine back on the Mursaat. By the end of prophecies it's kinda assumed the Mursaat are about as badly gone as the seers. - VileLasagna 13:05, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
They see anything and everything as a tool for their means. That's evil. They are evil. They are to be destroyed. That's how things work in RPGs. MithUser MithranArkanere Star.pngTalk 18:46, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
Obviously going holocaust on them, consequentially, makes the ascended heroes good - VileLasagna 22:31, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
Maybe, then, the Mursaat are merely "misunderstood." All they want to do is peacefully live their lives out being Smug or Ill-tempered, or Virtuous or Displeased, or what-have-you, and create neat little Mursaat Tokens. The extent of their interactions with other species has been a war with Seers from an unknown provocateur, and a similarly hazy, looming threat of extinction by Titans. This isn't exactly a nurturing environment for the peaceable truck, barter, and trade of Mursaat Tokens. And then by an unlucky coincidence, once the Heroes ascend the Mursaat show up as red dots on the Heroes' radar screens. Heroes wage immediate and constant war with red dots regardless of alignment considerations. If you've ever listened to a Mursaat die under your barrage of anti-red-dot-fury, you know that it emits a pitiful low-pitched grown, like an old dog wounded by a training club. - Tristan c 14:46, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
They killed a handful of Krytans without much thought, and eliminated from the equation the only guy, apparently, who would have had the spine to tell anyone (Saul D'Alessio). If they're not evil, they're chaotic neutral at best. Kind of ironic how that bid to save their asses by killing all the chosen worked out, eh? --Kyoshi User Kyoshi sig.png (Talk) 20:29, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
I don't think they are, by any means, nice guys who are just misunderstood and wished to live in peace with everyone. All I question is where are they so much worse than everybody. Of course, after War in Kryta, ANet went completely batshit and decided to undergo a systematic deconstruction of the white mantle and the Mursaat. None of that makes any sense AT ALL now since ANet wants us to love a completely unimportant princess in a completely unimportant land and, to try and force that, they decided they would destroy central elements of the Prophecies storyline. Seriously. Play proph, play Saul's Story, and then go see some WiK stuff.. it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and is deliberate deconstruction of background elements. Suddenly white mantle eat babies and the mursaat are a constant and central threat to the average Krytan villager. Yeah...right... - VileLasagna 14:57, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Personally I don't think the Mursaat are all that evil. It is clear that they wanted to ensure that the titans never escaped and ravaged the world. Once they heard the prophecies they immediately came up with a solution that not only ensured the survival of their own race but kept the world safe from the threat of the Titans. They did what they had to do to protect themselves and I am sure we would have done exactly what the Mursaat did if what happened to them happened to us. If anyone is the true enemy it is the Seer. They encouraged us to open the Door of Komalie as part of their vengeance against the Mursaat and guess what happens? The Titans are released and suddenly we have to race around Tyria trying to get rid of them. Opening the Door of Komalie wasn't the smartest move. Perhaps the Mursaat see us the same way humans see animals like sheep or cows. If it came down to our survival we would sacrifice thousands of cows and sheep so that we could survive. The only difference being that we humans decided to fight against the Mursaat. 04:40 (UTC)

Khilbron was the one that suggested opening the door, and he was clearly evil. The Seer just helped us because we were going to kill the mursaat, who were the seer's enemy (there was some kind of war or whatever). The mursaat were killing to save their skins, not anyone else's. All there is to it. -- Kyoshi User Kyoshi sig2.png 07:26, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
"It is clear that they wanted to ensure that the titans never escaped and ravaged the world" - Yes, on the first part (that the mursaat didn't want the titans to escape), but no support on the later. We can only know that they wanted to save their own skin. And I think the War in Kryta - how the mursaat treated Krytans after the titans were sealed up - is proof that they would not give a damn about the humans. The difference about humans and "sheep or cows" is that unlike sheep and cows, humans have a culture and civilization. Screw all of the soul stuff - as animals may easily have such in the GW universe - but normal animals, wildlife, do not have cultures nor civilizations. And the seer is no more evil than Glint, who knew all of the prophecies (though not how dangerous the titans would be). -- Konig/talk 02:51, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Glint = one of the oldest creatures in the world, ancient dragon who foresaw the fall the of Orr and subsequent events up until at least the unleashing of the titans upon Tyria and the following genocide of the Mursaat. Glint oversaw and guided the ascended heroes towards the fulfilment of theses predictions, known as "The Flameseeker Prophecies". Guild Wars 2: Sequel to the Guild Wars series where ancient evil dragons awake, wake destruction unto the world and serve as the main antagonists in a nearly apocalyptic world. The previous statements are completely unrelated to one another. Also, I think we should all make our very best effort to ignore War in Kryta as canon, as well as all implications of and from it. It was clearly the work of a troll who decided to destroy all the story and background Guild Wars has, for years, worked towards and makes no bloody sense at all except if considered isolated from the rest, as in some kind of parallel universe. The ability of one to enjoy Guild Wars as a roleplaying game, as opposed to just a nicely complex hack-and-slash adventure, is directly related to one's capacity to ignore War in Kryta and pretend it does not exist (at least Hearts of the North wasn't that bad), a situation that's becoming uncomfortably echoed in GW2, you either ignore what they're doing to the story or you're dragged into hatred and disgust - VileLasagna 14:21, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
"Also, I think we should all make our very best effort to ignore War in Kryta as canon, as well as all implications of and from it."Why? It is canon. In every way. It is a foreshadowing of events that occur in GW2 (and/or are the events that bring up the situation of GW2). I also would have to disagree with you on the story of it and GW2. -- Konig/talk 15:01, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
@VL: I don't get what the dragon statement had to do with anything. Same with your hatred of the storyline. -- Kyoshi User Kyoshi sig2.png 18:27, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Just a funny coincidence, really. And for the so called storyline, the thing is that's it has been brutally murdered by WiK in their effort to make mantle eat babies for breakfast and promote the justice and love of someone completely unimportant such as Salma. In all honesty I don't like prophecies, I hate Kryta and I think that the Shining Blade are just as bad as the mantle, with equal amounts of bonus hypocrisy points. But in WiK aNet decided to arbitrarily take everything in a direction completely abhorrent to pre-established canon, de-constructing characters, background in favour of an idea some moron had that is much less interesting than the first proposal. And heck, if you take away all the gameplay which came from an experimental phase of development and slight inconsistency issues that permeate prophecies, it's a really good idea and even Kryta is part of a complex and rich scenario. But now all of that's been thrown away so it can be dumbed down to stereotypes you present to kids under 10. If that's what aNet thinks their target demography is, there's not much hope for anything from here on, be it beyond or be it GW2, in which case we can only hope the gameplay is attractive enough (and, mind you, it's looking quite shiny in the overall so far) to kinda hold the game on it's on, because from an electronic roleplaying aspect (play through a story whilst enjoying its development) it's gonna be dead meat really. A real tragedy if you consider all that guild wars worked through with the four campaigns - VileLasagna 02:38, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

(Reset indent) 1) The White Mantle are bad guys overseen by evil bastards (the Mursaat - honestly, despite all the love for them, there's nothing that says they're nothing less than spellcasting hitlers). 2) Salma is important - she's the reason why Jennah is queen in GW2. 3) I don't see how you can see the Shining Blade as bad as fanatics who sacrifice people even after the Door is closed and the mursaat mostly dead. I'm not sure what was the "pre-established canon" since we knew that Salma would become queen, the WM would fall, and that the mursaat still survived for over 3 years. The War in Kryta merely showed us the story, rather than tell us via the Movement of the World and the like. If that's not the pre-established canon, then there was none, because we were never told of the outcome of the Shining Blade, White Mantle, and mursaat at the end of Prophecies - and didn't know of such until Eye of the North. So I honestly don't know what you're talking about ruining older lore.
Honestly, it just sounds like your sore about the mursaat being pinned as the bad guys rather than still being able to give an unsupported stance of them being good guys. -- Konig/talk 03:17, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Konig, you are generally pretty sound in your posts. With this, I am disappointed. 1) You could say just the opposite with the same exact reasoning. 2) That does not make anything important, unless the Shining Blade can see into the future and choose Salma solely because they know that her ancestor will be Queen. 3) I never played nor cared about the WiK, so I won't get much into this. The Movement of the World is not pre-established canon, it was written for GW2. Is the Prophecies story non-canon or something? Is it not older lore?
Oh, who's to say that the Mursaat are good guys or bad guys? Not everything has to be polarized. –~=Ϛρѧякγ AHHH! (τѧιк) ←♥– 04:03, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
Firstly, the WM are bad guys in the story - I'd love for you to prove that they're otherwise. Secondly, again, storyline wise Salma is very important. From an in-universe perspective, giving focus on (i.e., following) Salma is due to her being a descendant of royalty and King Doric - both things covered in the earliest canon lore. Nothing in Prophecies is contradicted - or even dramatically altered - by either the Movement or WiK - and the Movement predates the War in Kryta hence to the WiK it is pre-established canon lore. Is it the earliest? No. And I never said it was, I said it was established three years prior to the War in Kryta. And half of the WiK stuff is foreshadowed in Prophecies even (Salma taking the throne in the previously linked quest, the fall of the WM via the death of their inner council and Dorian, and the fact that the Shining Blade survived).
Honestly, the only thing the War in Kryta did was tell the same story that was being told since Prophecies (of course, further along in the story) in a new way. Am I saying the new way was good? No. It had its ups and its downs, but it certainly is canon and it certainly isn't "the work of a troll who decided to destroy all the story and background Guild Wars has" and I certainly don't see it as having been "dumbed down to stereotypes you present to kids under 10". -- Konig/talk 04:12, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
Okay, you have some reasons now (except for the part about Mursaat and the White Mantle that you avoided >.>). I don't know anything about WiK, so I'm not going to make any judgments on it. One thing I'd like to know is: was Salma ever mentioned in Prophecies? –~=Ϛρѧякγ AHHH! (τѧιк) ←♥– 04:35, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
*cough* -- Kyoshi User Kyoshi sig2.png 05:21, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
"except for the part about Mursaat and the White Mantle that you avoided >.>" I'm assuming you mean the evil thing? I avoided it because t hat's opinion. However, they are made out to be bad guys, and not-too-good either. Which was the point I was making out. There's nothing to support them being good - which I stated - and they are made out to be bad guys. I had nothing more to say on that topic. If you meant something else, I must of read over it. As to Salma, I linked a quest that deals with Salma and her being a bastard illegitimate child of the last king of Kryta. And she's in the Temple of the Ages near the Dwayna statue. She didn't have much focus, but she was in the game. She was also put in the end-game area when that was added. -- Konig/talk 06:35, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
I never denied that the Mursaat were jerks that were only looking after themselves, I think that what was crucial was that the other side of the coin was the bloody same. The White Mantle per se were saviours of Kryta. During the charr invasion, when the royal family decided to make poof, it was Saul who ended up saving everyone's ass and that's how the mantle actually rose to power within Kryta, protecting its people when the royals failed them. The (pre)ascendant heroes, on their exile from Ascalon arrived in Kryta, found that out and even joined the mantle as honorary members (although going this far was a bit forced imo). After a while they are beset by the shining blade in Maguuma and learn that instead of taking them to Janthir and training them, the mantle sacrifice the chosen, as dictated by the Unseen Ones. This instils a very comprehensible rage from the heroes who abandon the mantle. From this part on they are manipulated by the Shining Blade and Khilbron into fulfilling the Flameseeker Prophecies. They steal the Scepter of Orr and head to the Crystal Desert, seeking ascension. After becoming, in fact, the ascended heroes, the players help Jalis on the south shiverpeaks, recruit the aid of the Seers, who hated the Mursaat after losing what seems to be a very bad war with them, and proceed to the Ring of Fire, where they unleash the titans and allegedly slaughter about 95% of the Mursaat population. They are betrayed by Khilbron, who proves to be some lame second-rate villain and kill him, using his soul to seal the Door of Komalie once again. So, in the end, the Shining Blade deposed the mantle, manipulated the players and went genocidal against the Mursaat. They're just as bad. And after that, the more aNet furthered this story, the more they kept forcing things out of how they were because they decided that queens are cool and, thus, Salma needs to be the ultimate saviour of mankind. In order to achieve that, they decided to spiral what was left of the mantle and the Mursaat into some twisted baby-eater stereotypes. In WiK, the Mantle and the Mursaat are pretty much everything they were NOT. They're stupid, opressive, and keep making their best effort to make random displays of evil, for the lulz. And the Mursaat, the secretive and powerful Unseen Ones, are like an everyday threat to the average krytan... seriously. They were called Unseen Ones for a reason... This is why I stand by what I said: WiK came to destroy pre-established canon and unnaturally force the story towards a direction that does not make sense. - VileLasagna 17:53, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
I think everyone here knows the story of Prophecies... "So, in the end, the Shining Blade deposed the mantle, manipulated the players and went genocidal against the Mursaat."The Shining Blade didn't manipulate the players. Yes, they deposed the mantle - who were killing thousands of innocents - and those who commanded them to do such. How is taking out those who had killed thousands in just two years "just as bad"?
"they decided that queens are cool" - to be precise, it was the lionguard who were first to support Salma - first through the Lost Princess then through Firstwatch Sergio in the added end-game area of Prophecies. Then the SB went under Salma's banner by Evennia's order before she left the SB to aid Salma.
And I fail to see how Salma is made to be "the savior of mankind" or the mursaat made out to be any worse than they were in Prophecies. The White Mantle are because of the change in leadership. I mean, every government has "good" "bad" and "worse" leaders - and that's exactly the order the WM went in - good (saul), bad (dorian), and worse (Isaiah). It's not all that game/story breaking to see someone who was middle rank become a tyrant when given power. It's actually an archetype. In the WiK the mursaat are still unseen - but they're desperate so they give the WM their jades. It makes sense, tbh. Got to remember that, storyline wise, the PCs don't have True Sight when they go through Kryta so, by lore's reasoning, the mursaat could of been hovering right above the PC when they were accepted into the White Mantle, as they're meant to be invisible to those who they don't want to be seen by unless the person has True Sight. -- Konig/talk 18:32, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't really think any of us has the right to pass judgement as to whether the White Mantle and the Mursaat are good or evil. Our information on the Mursaat is scarce to say the least. We don't really know anything about the Mursaat's history and culture we assume that the main reason they sacrificed so many people was to ensure that the Door of Komalie remained closed but how do we really know that that was the only reason? They may have had other reasons to sacrifice so many. The point I'm trying to make is that the word "evil" or "good" is subjective. Some would view the Mursaat as evil for what they did but what if they had a good reason? Let's say (hypothetically) that the Mursaat could see the future and that each and every one of the people they sacrificed would one day try to destroy all of Tyria (extremely unlikely but I'm trying to make a point). Would we consider the Mursaat evil then? True the people sacrificed may have never done such a thing but we don't know that. The point I'm trying to make is that the terms "evil" and "good" are all to do with perspective. We haven't seen the Mursaat's (or the White Mantle's) side of the story and unless we have all the facts and points of view our judgement is merely born from ignorance and the Shining Blade's perspective. Another point I would like to raise (I know I am writing quite a bit here) is that we can't pass judgement on an entire species merely because of the actions of a few. True hundreds of Mursaat were involved in the sacrifice of the Chosen but could there have been Mursaat who didn't agree? Could it be that the Mursaat we fought merely be a small fraction of the entire species? We decided to sentence an entire species to death merely based on the actions of a small (well large) number of Mursaat. We have no idea whether the Mursaat we fought were really representatives of their entire race or merely an extremist group. We don't know whether the Mursaat who attempted to take over Kryta were really part of the same group as the Mursaat who sacrificed the Chosen or were merely power-hungry opportunists, taking advantage of the devotion of the White Mantle to led them into battle. Overall we essentially don't have enough information on the Mursaat. Would you blame all of the human race merely because of the actions of a single country? I certainly wouldn't. Before making passing any judgement we should wait for Anet to release more info on the Mursaat. We can speculate their origin, powers etc. but I don't really think we should speculate as to what their alignment is until we know for sure else we impress our ideas upon other people. We can't just say outright "the Mursaat are evil and will always be evil because of their actions. They must be eradicated.". Lumix19 00:01, 4 March 2011 (UTC)


The Mursaat look so cool every part of them is awesome ! except the body -_- why did they gave them boobs! :O just as fugly as necro's :( (srry necro lovers) The Holy Dragons 21:16, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

They don't have boobs...? -- Konig/talk 02:04, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
I don't see boobs there either. Maybe Holy needs glasses and so the breastplates look like boobs? --Kyoshi User Kyoshi sig.png (Talk) 02:10, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
They have chests, and are muscular (maybe moobs? :P), but not boobs. -- Konig/talk 02:11, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
Mursaat is german for flying tranny★NeiN★ 14:58, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
meh I still say manboob ¬_¬ --Dragon7 cape emblem.pngThe Holy Dragons 17:23, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

So, Salma doesn't have a clue...[edit]

She calls Mursaat Demons, but doesn't seem to understand what a demon is. A demon is something like an Oni, or Kanaxai, or creatures of the UW/FoW…Taka Ragranok 22:37, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

A crowd of protesters near my house had a sign that said black people and homosexuals were demonic. I think people use terms like that to describe things they don't like, not necessarily to literally categorize them. –Jette 01:22, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
It depends on how one uses the term. One could use it as being evil (which is how the SB describe the mursaat), or one could use it as being of demonic origin (which, unlike in most cases, in GW merely means a being born from the Mists). -- Konig/talk 03:07, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
Eh…even then. Were Margonites born from the mists? I don't think they were…Taka Ragranok 19:53, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
The exception to that rule is when creatures are turned into demons. Though Margonites being demons may be a simple game mechanic thing and not really lore. Except in being evil, of course. -- Konig/talk 02:24, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
I never got how the margos were so evil, too. It just sounds to me like there was some scuffle between the gods and suddenly Lyssa, in all her love and temperance, went "FUCK YOU, ABADDON!!!", to which the other gods, swayed by her undeniable sexyness promptly rallied: "Yeah! Fuck you, abaddon! You're ugly and have too many eyes!". Thus sparking the war in which the five gods drained the Crystal Sea, sent the forgotten to murder all the Margonites and ganged up to punch abaddon SO HARD into the mouth of torment they made a crater and screwed up all of the desolation, banishing Abbadon and the Margos to what is basically the GW equivalent of the Tartarus... Yeah, by the time of NF they are all pretty pissed off and the way they see it, war is still very much on against the five gods but can you truly blame them after that? Also worth noticing that allegedly the margos defaced the statues of the five gods in their temple, however when you actually go there the only monument that seems defaced is Abaddon's.. and it goes as far as his statue actually being missing from it - VileLasagna 14:50, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
Abaddon gave away magic too freely, which sparked wars consisting of excessive destructive force vs insane killing power. The other gods had to step in and make the bloodstone(s) so the world wouldn't be wiped out, and Abaddon disagreed, so they duked it out. -- Kyoshi User Kyoshi sig.png 18:57, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
Funny thing, considering he's the god of SECRETS. Needs to learn a thing or two from bad mama Shar. Still, though, doesn't help a thing with the margos, that just had a war with the forgotten thrown upon them because of the fights between the gods - VileLasagna 23:27, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
They remained loyal to Abaddon throughout the whole affair, or at least all the ones we know of. The only margonite known to have defected appears to be the Apostate. Not to question their good/evil status, just saying that they kind of had it coming once things got started and they didn't turn. -- Kyoshi User Kyoshi sig.png 02:18, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
The Margonites voluntarily (supposedly) transformed in order to fight for Abaddon - they even went so far as to desecrate the statues of the five other gods (as seen at the Temple of the Six Gods via the Gate of Madness (outpost)). They most certainly were not innocent in this affair. Why Jadoth was hunted is unknown, but they voluntarily joined Abaddon in his fight - despite what King Khimaar says, his people are not unjustly persecuted (Khimaar's a Margonite who wasn't transformed into a sterile demonic being). -- Konig/talk 02:23, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
Which puts them precisely in the same level of the forgotten who went there are started murdering them all. My point is that Guild Wars is too unilateral with these things, to the point where it eventually descends into pure sillyness and nonsense, as War in Kryta has shown so well - VileLasagna 10:02, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but where does it say the forgotten started murdering all of the Margonites? Abaddon's scriptures? That's for one Margonite. There's nothing to say that the forgotten murdered dozens of Margonites - outside the war which the Margonites and Abaddon caused. -- Konig/talk 18:15, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
Was was waged by the other gods on Abaddon, and the forgotten invaded the Crystal Sea, which was apparently home to the Margonites. So yeah, they kinda went there to attack the Margos - VileLasagna 22:26, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
"Because of the wars the other five gods limited the use of magic through the creation of the bloodstones, but Abaddon disagreed. Angered, Abaddon used his Margonite army to start a war against the other five gods..." (Abaddon) What exactly is unclear about this and why is it being argued on the mursaat talk page? -- Kyoshi User Kyoshi sig.png 22:28, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
Well, you're the one that mentioned margos first =P - VileLasagna 23:48, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
Technically, Taka did. And you brought it up second. Taka posted long ago, so you technically (re)started this discussion. -- Konig/talk 00:38, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

I'd say "I stand defeated" but seeing as the discussion reached THIS point, I guess "Victory is Mine!" would be more appropriate XD -VileLasagna 01:33, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Mursaat and Enchanted Armor[edit]

Personally, I disagree with that note. If you compare the armor to the Mursaat current appearance, they are very similar. I'd go so far as to speculate that the armors were the cast-off predecessors to the Jade constructs the Mursaat use now, based off their own chosen garb.

A tyrian enchanted armorMursaat caster.jpg

-Three-clawed boots
-Layered and spiked gauntlets
-Headgear with the twin rising points and forehead-mounted oval piece
-When viewed from the rear, the tallest spikes visible above on the enchanted armor are actually mounted in their back, approximately where the Mursaat wings/feathers are. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk).
Suddenly there IS quite a resemblance, that is undeniable. However Enchanted Armour are seen in the crystal desert with the Forgotten and the Mursaat appear to never have had any significant presence there. Enchanted Armour are more likely to be a similar type of construct developed by the forgotten during their war with the Margonites - VileLasagna 14:41, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
Linsey Murdock stated there is no connection. She's a developer for ArenaNet. I think she knows what she's talking about. -- Konig/talk 19:33, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
Probably, although that's actually the design people's business. Developers, however, are a much more reasonable and trusty bunch, so it evens out =P - VileLasagna 23:25, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
She asked around for the answers: "It's been hard getting a concrete answer to these questions because we are still trying to figure out what we want to do with these guys moving forward. After much discussion we have some really cool plans for the Mursaat but unfortunately I was told to tell you guys that you'll have to wait until GW2 to find them (and the answers to these questions) out. I think I can say pretty confidently that the Enchanted are not related to the Mursaat. I'll keep poking people and see if there is anything I can tell you guys but it'll probably be a while before I can. I wish I had better news, but I'll keep working on it." User_talk:Linsey_Murdock/Lore1#Asura_and_Mursaat It wasn't her own knowledge, but that of others. Who those others are were probably those who designed the lore and/or look of the Enchanted and Mursaat. -- Konig/talk 23:51, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Margonite and Muursaat[edit]

Just a thought... the Muursaat know about the titans, margonite control the titans. perhaps, at one point in time, these people met, or even more kooky, maybe at one point in time... they were the same? different paths in evolution once they reached the desert? some decided to go with abaddon, some decided to gain their own power? --The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk).

I'm not sure the margos control the titans. Also neds moar sign - VileLasagna 17:26, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
Nothing says the Margonites control the titans. The Fury helps create them, and they follow Abaddon than Mallyx, but nothing says they're controlled by either. Merely works for. -- Konig/talk 19:34, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
Oh, and Margonites=humans turned demonic. Mursaat=predates humanity. -- Konig/talk 19:34, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
I used to get the two confused a lot of the time, actually. I guess they're a similar concept – demons you fight toward the end of the game, though we also have Apostate and The Lost to mix things up a bit. Funny though; at the heart of corruption and torment (etc.) we're still given some "good" demons, but despite many players wanting to believe the Mursaat have another side to them, they're constantly made out just to be evil bastards. – NuclearDuckie 04:06, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
That's because they have game designers writing the game instead of writers. –Jette 05:05, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
Technically, you have writers (along with the actual position of writers, two of the most well-known-to-be lore folks of Anet are also people who have written several books, Jeff Grubb and Ree Soesbee) and game designers writing the game. Though I fail to see the relevance of that to this topic. -- Konig/talk 06:04, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
I think the Mursaat/evil thing depends on how much they really know, and their motivations for it. Hypothetically, say a doctor is diagnosed with cancer, works his butt off, and finds a cure for it, entirely motivated by saving his own life, but in the process saving thousands of other lives. Would he be called evil for it?
Likewise, if the Mursaat keep the titans locked up as best they can to save themselves, and in the process keep the rest of Tyria safe from the same threat, does that necessarily make them evil?
That just covers the titan issue though. Trying to retain the stranglehold on Kryta after the events of Prophecies does seem more like just blatant power mongering vs survival or altruism. 05:56, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
I "like" how you completely ignored the fact that the mursaat had thousands killed for the soul batteries in order to keep the titans locked up. And how you ignored Lazarus the Dire's method of survival (killing off multiple members of his own followers for just himself) and compared that to researching a disease which, by your example, killed no one in finding the cure. -- Konig/talk 06:38, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
I said what I did about writers because the characterization went from "villainous, but arguably enemies of Abaddon and still cool" to moustache-twirling dickery. I'll be honest though, I think I only like them because of their animation set. Have you seen the way Shiro's constructs did Hundred Blades back when it was "attack target and adjacent foes twice?" It was awesome. They have some of the best animations in the game, even for plain old spellcasting. I always wanted my elementalist to use their animation set, probably because male eles' animations are so dull anyway. –Jette 15:46, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
Well, the moustache-twirling dickery would probably have made more sense had there been more enemy-scrying cutscenes (like with the Lich earlier) showing the attitude of the new leader of the WM, or the mursaat getting ragey.
I definitely agree on the elementalist animation sets. I always wished we could choose to make them swerve around like rits or something instead just for fun. -- Kyoshi User Kyoshi sig2.png 19:27, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
The five-second animation for meteor shower would be cooler to watch with that "clawing" thing they do. They can't be that bad, though; they did save Kryta from all those Charr... then killed half the guys helping them and ate Saul. Come to think of it, I don't think they're "good guys" or "bad guys," I think they're just excellent trolls, or maybe chaotic stupid. –Jette 20:11, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
Stupid made up for with raw power...sounds archetypal enough. -- Kyoshi User Kyoshi sig2.png 20:38, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
Ahh, Saul. I hope the Mursaat did something more creative than just "eating" him. Like turning him into a GW2 boss. – NuclearDuckie 01:48, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
I don't think a human can live 250 years... And not to mention I think plenty of people have had their fill of returning bosses. -- Konig/talk 12:52, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
Margonites can, and they were humans. Maybe the mursaat can do something similar. -- Kyoshi User Kyoshi sig2.png 20:33, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
TBH, I believe that most margonites are spirit or spirit-like, mainly due to the fact that the only body part they have is fish-like skin. -- Konig/talk 21:07, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, that's sort of what I meant. Sounds pretty unoriginal now that I think about it, but whatever. – NuclearDuckie 03:03, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Mysterious Black (jade?!?) island in the far northwest that nobody can access[edit]

Anybody think that these guys have some connection to that place? It must serve some purpose, what about a Mursaat town/city/jade mine? i actually wouldn't mind that: a faction of Mursaat added as part of GW:beyond, with new heroes/henchies and a story that offers a deeper insight into this island and the Mursaat. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk).

Doubtful. -- Konig/talk 15:50, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
Apparently we're not going to find out what significance that island holds "for a long time". – NuclearDuckie 12:36, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Excuse me![edit]

People seem to be taking this "thousands were killed" (on the blood stones) thing a bit seriously. Has anyone ever heard of an exateration??? (I spelled that wrong) I don't think the mursaat/white mantle killed thousands-they were not around long enough, nor do we have any evidence that the White Mantle killed that many people. I'm very annoyed that people are willing to take this statement so seriously.--User Necro Shea mo signature.jpg Necro Shea Mo 18:41, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Actually, thousands (maybe not 2,000+ but 1,000+) is possible. In Bloodstone Fen you see 2 groups of 5-10 individuals being taken to the bloodstone and killed, and there's the third group you tried to save in The Wilds - that right there is 15-30 individuals in the beginning of the tests, and this is the third time said tests are going on. Likewise, in Abaddon's Mouth, near where the bonus NPC is, you can see 3 racks of 2x3 soul batteries; at the end of the mission, when you destroy one Ether Seal (connected to a soul battery), ~5 hostile spirits come out and if you watch the soul battery itself there's 3-5 souls that you don't fight, meaning roughly 10 souls per soul battery; we effectively see 24 soul batteries in that mission alone - in other words, roughly 240 souls. Abaddon's Mouth takes place at the end of Fall, so all those souls are probably those from that year's Test of the Chosen, which began with Divinity Coast. 240 (best guess of souls per year) times 3 (number of years) is at least roughly 720 souls in soul batteries since the White Mantle took power - this does not include any political enemies or individuals taken outside of the Test of the Chosen time period during these times. Over a thousand is very easy to do in 2-3 years. Without having looked at that in the past, I wouldn't really believe that statement to be accurate. Also, you want "exaggeration." Konig/talk 23:03, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
It's surprisingly easy to kill thousands of people over the course of a few days. A few years ago I was on anabolic steroids to counteract some other bad drugs I'd been taken and a savage rage rose within me — I blacked out, and when I regained consciousness about five minutes later, I'd killed two hundred and forty-seven people with a fire axe, with dozens more injured or in shock from my verbal abuse alone. Several thousand deaths from a species that has a "take 600 damage" button without an energy cost isn't that hard to believe. What is hard to believe is how badly the so-called writers have menaced the poor Mursaat, who were cool in Prophecies and genuinely impressive with Lazarus and that whole BMP thing, but then totally ruined; hoisted from the noble ranks of austere overpowered spellcasters and consigned to the sad role of Saturday morning cartoon villainy. –Jette 00:18, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
(Edit conflict) It'd be pretty easy provided you assume that the in-game depiction of Kryta is distinctly underpopulated, compared to any real society large enough to warrant a governing/peacekeeping body. I don't know if there are even 1000 distinct Krytan NPCs shown in-game, and it seems like every other one is a soldier. While the people are curious about the number of Chosen leaving ("Every season the Mantle come and take a few more. But none of them ever come back."), I think a 50% reduction in population size would produce more unrest, so one would assume that there are many, many more Krytan citizens.
@Jette: Yeah, but the Mursaat don't seem to want to take part in the killings on the bloodstones, since Hablion did it himself in Bloodstone Fen (unless they just didn't make it to the party on time and Hablion started without them). --ஸ Kyoshi User Kyoshi sig2.png 00:26, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
Oh, and I would say the Mursaat weren't quite the cartoon villains, they were probably just yelling at the Mantle to fix their shit up and the Mantle were majorly incompetent without their monk boss. The Mursaat didn't talk enough during WiK to be cartoon villains. --ஸ Kyoshi User Kyoshi sig2.png 00:29, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
To further Kyoshi's population argument - during the WiK, the WM were supposed to be dwindling, with people leaving their ranks (we saw 3, and were told of many more) and only bandits (peacekeepers) joining them. Yet how bloody huge was their forces during the last two quests of WiK - and not to mention those encountered during HotN which were not at the battle... If the WM were less than half of Kryta's population (a reasonable assumption but not totally backed up), then Kryta's actual population must be pretty bloody huge from what we actually see. Which wouldn't really be surprising as we only met "important" people (I hope this changes in GW2). Konig/talk 01:38, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
This is a pretty common concept I run across in my writing as well as that of others; we call it "Chekhov's Gun." The idea is that if there's a gun on the mantle of the fireplace in the beginning of chapter one, that gun must have fired by the end of chapter three. Although I guess with people, it could be called Chekhov's gunman... anyway, it's known by a lot of other vague right-brained terms like the "law of conservation of dialogue," whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean. The point is you don't include people that aren't going to matter later on. If someone isn't helping to advance the plot, develop characters, or pimp your real-life merchandise, they're just wasting space.
This is even more important in video games, where everything has a price tag. It's part of the suspension of disbelief: we know there are more people in Kryta and more than 5 or 6 dwarves at Droknar's Forge, but we don't need or even want to see them. I played GW on a crappy 2003 laptop for the first year and a half, and seeing 800 idiot Krytans wandering around with no dialogue in the middle of LA would have turned my swap space into a molten furnace. –Jette 02:02, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
I almost disagree that it should be that way in video games. For characters with names, absolutely, but the world feels empty if the only people there are people who directly serve a purpose for the player. There are guards and citizens wandering around, but not many, and half of them get stuck on chests or other NPCs or facing some odd direction. --ஸ Kyoshi User Kyoshi sig2.png 18:57, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
Jette's correct about why Television shows, plays, and novels are like that: you waste valuable resources (time, actor salaries, or the viewer's/reader's attention span) if you introduce a gun in Act 1 and fail to use it by Act 3.
But that's not always true: if you have a whodunnit, you have to introduce enough "who" in order that ppls can't figure the dunnit too easily; if you want to create a sense of awe about the size of a world (see: Elona), you need to include a lot of space that might not include foes or notable landmarks. Similarly, if you you want players to feel immersed in an MMO universe, you need to include enough NPCs to make it feel lived in.
There's a balance, especially for lawnmowers who click on everything and wiki-Ronin (who try to document everything). There are costs in MMOs (rendering motion of that many independent objects is not free), but there's plenty of room to flesh out things. Does that mean we need to see outhouses/bathrooms in GW2? No. But it does mean that ANet can make sure there's a difference between the population density in a village, an outpost, and a town/city. — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 19:12, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
Wow. Ok, thousands does seem reasonable after the actual math from Konig. At first, seeing the amount of 'thousands killed' based posts, I was annoyed that so many people would argue what appeared to be a very flimsy statement.--User Necro Shea mo signature.jpg Necro Shea Mo 23:34, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
It's okay, math ruins my arguments all the time too. --ஸ Kyoshi User Kyoshi sig2.png 04:34, 11 August 2011 (UTC)


Why are we treating the standard differently between the two games? I was under the impression that lowercase was the universal standard now. --ஸ Kyoshi User Kyoshi sig2.png 17:53, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

It was universal for a short time, but the Live Team reverted to using capitalized in the game. And it was discussed somewhere a long while back (I'll be damned if I can find it...) and agreed that we should follow the game the wiki focuses on. In other words, so long as GW1 text capitlizes terms, the GW1W shall. Konig/talk 19:09, 11 August 2011 (UTC)


This is related to the section It says: "The door was opened, the Titans were let loose across Tyria, and most of the Mursaat were exterminated."

I have a few questions regarding the mursaat's demise:

How did the mursaat get exterminated by the titans? What made the titans go after the mursaat? Why were the mursaat race destroyed by the titans? Do the titans or Abaddon or the seers or anyone else have anything against the mursaat? Why are the mursaat and the seer races enemies? --The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk).

Technically, the mursaat were mostly killed by the players (according to The Flameseeker Prophecies), but the Titans finished the job - Khilbron (aka lich lord) sent them throughout Tyria to hunt the mursaat and the major capitals (Thunderhead Keep, LA, Rin, Henge of Denravi) down. As for how and why the Mursaat were killed by the Titans... well, how does one kill? That's your answer there. The seers and mursaat are enemies from an ancient war - one that predates humanity on Tyria (world) - the cause of which is unknown, but the mursaat won the war, and the seers that remain (we technically only see one - maybe a second during WiK) are bitter to their loss (talk about grudge holding). As far as we know, neither the Titans nor Abaddon hate the mursaat; they were a problem to Abaddon's (and Khilbron's) plans however - what with keeping the Titans locked in the Realm of Torment via keeping the Door of Komalie closed. And they weren't particularly "good" guys either, what with killing thousands in a couple years, so some humans (aka Shining Blade and PCs) wanted them gone too.
Your questions are pretty much explained during Prophecies (and Nightfall). Konig/talk 02:10, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
Why did the mursaat want the Door of Komalie closed? If doing so would have got in the way of Abaddon and his titans, weren't the mursaat courting their own doom? Their actions don't really make sense. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk).
The Flameseeker Prophecies pretty much explicitly states that the mursaat would be wiped out if the door is opened, leading to the mursaat keeping it closed, the means of which motivating the PCs to open it - e.g., a self-fulfilling prophecy (they tend to be that, don't they). Konig/talk 10:41, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
I have a different question about the same chapter of this article, why does it say that a group of Ascalonians did all those things? Elonian and Canthan characters can do those too. Jeree95 15:59, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
The events of Prophecies happen before the events of Factions and Nightfall. That section documents canon lore, not mechanics or player-made stories. Konig/talk 16:24, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Is also a affiliation ?[edit]

Affiliation : "Often, they correspond to social organizations, e.g. tribal identities, standing armies, or political groups."

Mursaats definitely have a social organization, with a presumed leader (Optimus Caliph), a common goal (powering the soul batteries to prevent the titans to crush them), a trade system (help in exchange of lives) and an typical architecture.

I want to point out that some mursaats have the mursaat affiliation (Optimus Caliph) and others (Lazarus the Dire) not.Since there is no known Apostate-like among Mursaats, we need to tell if there is a social organization or if they are all independent (which seems doubtful since they act like an army in Ring of Fire). Ich bin marc 22:31, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

In lore, yeah, they're an affiliation in that they have a social organization. But in mechanics... it's fairly unknown simply because of how chaotic the Prophecies NPCs were - for instance, charr and titans in Prophecies have no family (aka creature type), while those from other campaigns do have such - similarly, there are cases where NPCs in the same grouping in lore don't have the same mechanical affiliation (this is most often via elite missions having their own affiliation, but probably exist in other cases that we don't know about too). I think we simply list them as their own affiliation but, for all we know, they could share the same affiliation as the White Mantle. Konig/talk 23:50, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
I don't they share the same affiliation as the WM since WM are more theirs puppets. WM is more a sub-group of Mursaat organisation, like aphid with ant. Ich bin marc 00:03, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
Except things don't really work like aphid with ant. Seeing how Jade constructs are likely the same affiliation as mursaat, or how Siege Ice Golems are the same affiliation as Stone Summit dwarves, yet are mursaat/stone summit dwarves but just "puppets." Or Charr Hunter Beasts, Charr Effigies, etc. etc. Konig/talk 03:29, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

GW2 tag[edit]

Shouldn't the tag that says there is an article in 2 go at the top of the page, not down towards the bottom? 21:10, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

As with all articles which contain {{gw2w}}, the tag goes to the last section of the article unless there is no image on the article, in which it goes to the top. Same case on GW2W with the gww template. Images goes to the top, if none then the gw2w template if there's a gw2w article. Konig/talk 22:41, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

this edit[edit]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the canon story that Devona and co. are the heroes, and the campaigns occur in the order of Prophecies > Factions (with Mhenlo going early) > Nightfall > EotN? In which case, wouldn't Ascalonians still be correct, as it's referring to the canon heroes, rather than the player character mercenaries? Thrain | contribs 00:00, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

Technically foreigners still works, since the Ascalonians were foreigners to Kryta. MursaatHistorian23 (talk) 04:33, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
While "foreigners" may technically work, The original wording is more direct and doesn't require additional pages or definitions. It's also more informative and less ambiguous. Thrain | contribs 15:35, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
You are right. It could be bothering to some. I can change it if it causes any more confusion.

MursaatHistorian23 (talk) 02:16, 1 January 2017 (UTC)